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Water temp and MPG

Discussion in 'Stock 1995 - 2001 Explorers' started by 2TimingTom, February 19, 2015.

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    1. Turdle

      Turdle I bake stuff Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      It will do that until the radiator gets warmed up, then it should get pretty stable.

      Once your truck cools off, recheck the coolant level in the radiator. Do not rely on the level in the reservoir, you must check the level in the radiator. Sometimes these things are a bugger to get all the air out-
       
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    3. DJRockit69

      DJRockit69 Active Member

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      Yea I know from past experience lol but I do know When I was bleeding the system I had two huge air bubbles came out and my heat is 100% better also to the air temp is about 8 degrees out right now
       
    4. DJRockit69

      DJRockit69 Active Member

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      Ok I will do that hopefully it will I bleed the system and two good size are bubbles cames out also it's 8 degrees outside right now so it's cold lol
       
    5. koda2000

      koda2000 Explorer Addict

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      The thermostat for the 5.0L has a "rattle valve" that is supposed to be positioned at/near 12:00. There's a slight recess in the thermostat gooseneck to accommodate it. It's purpose is to let air out more easily. I've never had a problem bleeding a 5.0L, but I sure have on the SOHC.

      Good tip from Turdle. Always check the coolant level in the radiator (when cool). Too many things can cause the overflow tank to not give you a true reading. Even with no issues it can take days for the overflow to completely fill the radiator.
       
    6. PAExplorerXLT

      PAExplorerXLT Active Member

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      Is there a special bleed valve. Some engines do and some others are supposed to bleed themselves.
       
    7. DJRockit69

      DJRockit69 Active Member

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      Crap I didn't think I did that. I have an aftermarket thermostat housing due to the factory one cracking on me I just checked my radatior coolant level and it didn't need any fluid
       
    8. koda2000

      koda2000 Explorer Addict

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      it's not the end of the world if you didn't put the rattle valve in the right place. the air will come out eventually. I wouldn't worry about it. some people force the thermostat open enough to insert an aspirin in it. this allows the air to escape and then the aspirin dissolves.
       
    9. Jim_WY

      Jim_WY New Member

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      First, I've now changed the thermostat again. Different brand than the first one, but they were/are both 198 degree F units.

      It really doesn't warm up much when idling. It always used to. I could fire it up on a cold day, just let it sit and warm up, and the temp gauge would be at the middle fairly fast.

      As things are now, if I just start it and let it idle, the gauge comes up to right around the line at the "C". Then, when I drive it, it warms up a bit more, and with this latest (put in today) thermostat, the highest I ever saw the gauge go was maybe a hair over what is shown in that photo we've been plagiarizing in this thread. :)

      I appreciate both of you guys' information about the fan. I suspect mine is working just fine, then. The fan moves fairly easily when pushed by hand when the engine is cold. It probably just spins somewhat when I first start the car because of the bit of drag it does have at that temperature.

      I've had to replace the thermostats in every car I've ever owned (Well, OK, not the VW Bug, but...) ;)

      And the symptoms were usually a lot like what I'm seeing with this vehicle. And putting in a new thermostat has always fixed the problem immediately, and positively. So that's why I changed this one right off.

      But now, I've put in the 2nd thermostat in as many weeks, and neither one seems to be making any significant difference.

      But I need to let this one run for a while, make sure the system is properly burped and fully topped off, etc., but so far, today, it seems just like it was at first, and after putting in the first new thermostat a few weeks ago.

      So I bought a new temperature sensor/sender for the thermostat housing. I'll put it on if things continue to act strange. Maybe the thermostats have all been just fine, but the sensor is lying to me. And I'll check the wiring and connectors for the temperature sensor, too, in case it's just a broken (intermittent) wire or a crummy connector.

      It was almost up to freezing today, and the sun was shining, so I took that opportunity to swap in the new new thermostat. But it's supposed to snow and get colder in the next couple of days, so I'll have more opportunity to observe the cold weather behavior. :D

      I did, indeed, have the first thermostat installed correctly (wax pellet in, pointy end out - and bleeder valve thing at 12 O'Clock) for what that's worth.

      I'll let you all know what happens, and if I swap in the new temperature sensor, too.

      Thanks again, everyone.
       
    10. 2TimingTom

      2TimingTom Well-Known Member

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      Changed the thermostat today (finally) and now the ScanGauge reads 190 (188-193 or so as it fluctuates).

      Needle points more toward the middle now as well.

      No word on MPG as I barely drive it. Should improve though.
       
    11. DJRockit69

      DJRockit69 Active Member

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      so it turns out my gauge on my dash isnt reading right or something alone those lines I got a scanner and everything is reading and working correctly proper water temp and all that Jazz. now Im wondering why the gauge o my dash isnt working right considering I replaced the thermostat and the temp sending unit. Im wondering if it has something to do with the v6 to v8 swap I did. Now the parts explorer I got was a early 96 just mine is so is it possible that I have some wiring pins that arent lining up right or could the gauge failing?
       
    12. 2TimingTom

      2TimingTom Well-Known Member

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      I never did resolve this issue. As you can see in the ScanGauge, the water temp is 195 (cycles between about 190-197, breaks 200 briefly in heavy stop-n-go). Temp need isn't quite in the middle. Here's a pic (finally):
      [​IMG]

      I'm getting about 13 mpg (230 miles to a tank).

      The real question is: because the temp gauge isn't reading "in the middle", is the computer getting wrong info and selecting a fuel table that's too rich (like the warm up cycle)? Or is my crappy mileage because it's wintertime, I'm geared with 4.56s, and I'm SAS'd? Lots of factors.
       
    13. Turdle

      Turdle I bake stuff Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      If this is of any use-
      During our trip to Colorado using the AC on I70 doing 70 mph the coolant temp reached over 225 degrees according to my scangauge, however the idiot needle stayed dead center.

      Another thing that deserves mention.

      My info center shows poor economy, but the actual mileage computed by gps distance traveled and gallons to fill, is higher.

      I also noted my tank is not as needy as the fuel gauge says it is, and wonder if the sender float isn't sogged down and heavier that it should be. In other words it seems like the float might be dropping faster than it normally would. Full tank shows just over full, but 1/4 tank shown on gauge will only allow 11 gallons back in. What the fudge can this mean?


      I am not sure if the message center economy is computed using the sender unit input, or, if it uses feedback from the fuel pump injector driver circuit. Either way mine is wrong.
       
    14. fastpakr

      fastpakr Elite Explorer

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      The temperature and gauge behavior you're describing doesn't sound abnormal to me. If there is a problem causing your low fuel economy (other than the temperature, gearing, etc that you mentioned) I don't think it has anything to do with the cooling system.
       

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    15. Craigerz

      Craigerz Elite Explorer

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      My console showed even with the odometer even when I swapped to bigger tires. I put a new speedo gear in to re-calibrate the speedometer and the console still matches the odometer, which is now about right +/- 1 mph.

      I just put a new fuel pump in and mine does the same thing also. I have learned to use the console as more of a judgment, the fuel gauge as a back up, but really I just watch the odometer. I really wanted to have all the neat little functions working like miles left per tank and fuel economy, just because its already there. Now they are somewhat trustworthy after I swapped the speedo gear out.
       
    16. koda2000

      koda2000 Explorer Addict

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      Your water temp needs to be hot enough to enter "closed loop mode". That's roughly 190-195 degrees F.

      When I first bought our 2000 Mountaineer 5.0 the temp gauge read near the "C" mark unless I let it idle for 15 mins. Even then it read maybe 1/4 way up max. It seemed to make good interior heat, but wasn't normal. My fuel economy sucked at around 13 MPG hwy. Eventually it set the CEL with a P0125 code. I replaced the t-stat and the gauge started reading approx mid way on the temp gauge (normal) it had fantastic heat and started getting around 20 MPG hwy, which matched my 2 other 5.0's over the same trip.

      Apparently the PCM requires a coolant temp in excess of 167F to enter closed loop mode, otherwise it's like running with the choke on.
       
    17. 2000StreetRod

      2000StreetRod Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      My Sport PCM goes to closed loop about 20 seconds after cold engine start. That's just long enough for the O2 sensor heaters to get hot enough to make the O2 sensors reliable. As I recall the 2nd generation PCM adjusts the AFR based on inlet air temperature (IAT), engine coolant temperature (ECT), time after engine start and load. The engine temperature gauge on the instrument cluster has a dedicated engine coolant temperature sender that has no effect on the PCM that has its own sensor. The 3rd generation has a cylinder head temperature sensor for the PCM and no ECT. The PCM relays cylinder head temperature info to the instrument cluster.

      A defective engine coolant thermostat or an intentionally low temperature thermostat will significantly decrease fuel economy with the stock tune.
       
    18. 2TimingTom

      2TimingTom Well-Known Member

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      My '97 is a bit of a bastard year. The ScanGauge can't read fuel usage on '97s. So no info center either.

      I compute my MPGs the old fashioned way: I enter it into an app that does the math for me. I've tracked every tank I've ever pumped since about 2008. I've changed the speedo gear so my speedometer/odometer is reasonably accurate.

      I was looking through my logs and my mileage does improve when not on the winter blended gas. And while I did get better mileage in the winter when I first got it, that was on stock gearing, stock tires, stock height.......
       
    19. 2000StreetRod

      2000StreetRod Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      I remember reading that the PCM uses injector pulse width and engine speed to compute fuel consumption. If the injector size or the fuel pressure is changed from stock and the tune parameters are not changed accordingly then the computed fuel consumption will be inaccurate. The rear axle sensor drives the 4WABS which generates a vehicle speed signal for the PCM and the speedometer. I think the PCM uses the vehicle speed signal, axle ratio and tire size to compute vehicle speed. Changing the axle ratio or tire size from stock and not changing the corresponding parameters in the tune will result in vehicle speed and distance traveled errors.

      If the odometer is accurate then using miles driven on the odometer and fuel added to refill the tank to compute fuel economy is an accurate method.
       
    20. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Hope this helps,
      It shows (At least on my 2000 v8 strategy) how fast the pcm goes closed loop based on temp. Adaptive learning does not occur till temp is 150 degree's or more.
      upload_2017-12-7_21-43-46.png
       
    21. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Here's a screen shot for adaptive learning.
      upload_2017-12-7_21-48-0.png
       
    22. 2000StreetRod

      2000StreetRod Staff Member Moderator Elite Explorer

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      Don, unless I'm mistaken, for your strategy if the start up ECT is 60 degrees or greater the delay to switch to closed loop is 16 seconds. Closed loop means that the PCM is controlling the AFR based on the O2 sensors. Look at one of your datalogs when closed loop is recorded for a cold engine start.

      My understanding is adaptive learning is the process when the PCM computes and stores parameters for various engine conditions for future use for similar conditions. The stored parameters reduce PCM computation time and provides backup data when a sensor has failed.
       
    23. Dono

      Dono V8 Limited turbo and retired SC 4.0 OHV Elite Explorer

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      Absolutely correct.
      I thought I would include both so that the difference between closed loop, and adaptive learning would be seen.

      To further simplify things, closed loop enforces changes made by adaptive learning while using data from the 02 sensors.

      So, in my current Strategy, I never, ever want my truck running cooler than 150 degree's. If my thermostat can't get my truck to that temp, any auto learning will not take place.

      To the op, what we are seeing is that the coolant temp is not the issue with your poor gas mileage.
       

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