Underdrive Water pump Pulley Installation: 4.0 SOHC | Page 2 | Ford Explorer Forums - Serious Explorations

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Underdrive Water pump Pulley Installation: 4.0 SOHC

Here is a link with more Proform electric pumps: http://store.summitracing.com/defau...ch&DDS=1&N=115&target=egnsearch.asp&x=38&y=10. It's a more expensive one than the universal one. Here is a picture of one of them:
pro-66225b_w.jpg
 



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I have to wonder about the overall economy savings of an electric water pump. Regardless wheather the pump is powered directly off the crank or the pump is is powered by electricity from the battery that is charged by the alternater that is driven directly off the crank, the power to pump the water is still generated by the engine.

Every additional component in any power circuit introduces energy losses. In the oem configuration the crank drives the belt that drives the pump, so only the pump is using energy. With an electric setup you save the enery that was driving the pump BUT then the electric motor has to turn the pump. Electric motors are fairly inefficient with a lot of energy turned to heat. In order to run the electric motor the alternator has to work harder and they're fairly inefficient and in order to turn the heavier load on the alternater the engine has to work harder. In the long run I'd be surprised if there's a MPG savings at all. Anyone have test data?

No doubt you can get better cooling though, if you need it. Just for fuel efficiency I'd go with the underdrive as long as it maintains sufficient cooling.
 






I once read some article about a company that designed a nylon heat exchanger that was supposed to replace a standard radiator in a car. That company claimed that their heat exchanger was so efficient that it could be hidden in a wheel well, and didn't require a standard fan to cool it down. It was supposed to be very small, and lightweight. Did anybody here ever read a similar article like this in the 80s?
 


















Larry, I understand that the alternator wastes electricity to power the electric pump, but if the pump were run at the same time as an electric fan (depending upon the engine's temperature) it wouldn't be running 100% of the time like a regular water pump, or a fan running off of the pump's pulley.
 






The cost benifit, just is not there for a SOHC V6, your talkin a miniscule amt of HP.
some will see great gas savings, most will see none.
 






BrooklynBay said:
Larry, I understand that the alternator wastes electricity to power the electric pump, but if the pump were run at the same time as an electric fan (depending upon the engine's temperature) it wouldn't be running 100% of the time like a regular water pump, or a fan running off of the pump's pulley.


The electric fans can shut off at cruising speed because there's sufficient air flow across the radiator. I've only had a couple instances of water pump failure in my life but in both cases the engine severely overheated very quickly. I believe the electric pumps provide a constant water flow ... some have a temp sensor to increase the flow if necessary but I don't think they can ever shut off. At least that's my opinion from shopping around for them but I've certainly been wrong before :D
 






If you cut power to them, they will completely shut down. Don't forget that when you are traveling on the highway, air is rushing all over your engine. That's why electric fans shut off then. The engine's temperature will decrease at that point. The Cadillac Northstar has a safety feature. If you have a coolant leak, one cylinder will turn into an air pump to air cool the engine. GM tested this system by having somebody drive across the country without any antifreeze, and it didn't overheat. I'm surmprised that the water pump didn't get ruined from running dry for such an extended period of time. Maybe it did, but I don't know. They did it just to test a new system of theirs. They also crash brand new cars for testing purposes, so I guess a water pump is no loss for them.
 






I too believe that any water pump needs to provide constant circulation to prevent hot spots as well as overheating.

Still, the concept of one on my truck is very intriguing.
 






i was wondering if you could toss up some measurments for the old pulley, back spacing and bolt patern diameter. if not, no big deal, its probbly a slim to nil chance at adaptability but i've had a set of under drive pulleys for an 80's f-150 that have beem little more than annoying obstacles and paperwieghts for a couple years (truck rusted away)
 


















I wonder if theres a way to put a pump in line with the pipe coming off the rad, and remove the internals of the factory pump? Or is this just wasted thinking :confused: lol
 






Brandons said:
I wonder if theres a way to put a pump in line with the pipe coming off the rad, and remove the internals of the factory pump? Or is this just wasted thinking :confused: lol
Summit sells a remote pump to do just what you describe.
 






Since I am doing mostly in town and short road trips these days, I am going to pull the UD water pump pulley and return to stock to see if I get better cooling in this blistering summer heat..

Results soon; I have to go get a new drive belt.
 






Since I am doing mostly in town and short road trips these days, I am going to pull the UD water pump pulley and return to stock to see if I get better cooling in this blistering summer heat..

Results soon; I have to go get a new drive belt.

Mission accomplished; will evaluate tomorrow.
 






In this high heat ( 98 F ), my coolant temperature ( as monotored via OBD II ) in slow/stop and go traffic would reach 215 F.

After swaping the UD water pump pulley back to the stock pulley, the same driving conditions yield coolant temperature between 195-198 F.

After rethinking the UD water pump pulley, unless all you do is highway driving ( or racing ), I do not recommend the UD water pump pulley.

An upcomming 1500 mile road trip will determine the effect on gas mileage.
 









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Regarding underdrive/overdrive, Al explained it thoroughly, and is right on. The larger pulley on the accessories will make them turn slower. (It's the exact same reason your speedometer indicates slower with larger tires).

Regarding the electric pump, there are horsepower gains to be had... The parasitic loss due to turning a mechanical water pump is significantly greater than the parasitic loss due to generating the electricity needed to turn the electric pump. It's the exact same benefit derived from electric cooling fans, and on newer cars, electric power steering. Even as inefficient as electric motors can be, it's still less parasitic power loss than a mechanical setup.

My question would be: if you could replace the mechanical pump with an electric one, how would you route the belt around the accessories to compensate for the water pump pulley no longer being there? Seems like there might not be enough contact area on the crank pulley after that... Just something to think about if you ever got to that point.

It's going to take a paritcular flow rate through the engine to prevent hot-spots in the heads/combustion chambers. Drop below that threshold, and the coolant will begin to boil locally, and that's not good... Keeping the flow rate up with an electric pump won't decrease the coolant temp, but it will prevent increases in the temp.

Also, Al, the temp increase at idle should be expected... It's not necessarily a bad thing. Because the coolant is moving through the head more slowly, it's absorbing more heat from the head. As it flows past the thermostat housing (where the sensors are located), the coolant is hotter, yes. But that doesn't mean it's hurting the engine. You're still well below the boiling point for the system, and it's not likely the engine is running significantly different.

The UD pulley is still providing enough coolant flow to keep the engine cooled at freeway speeds, as evidence by the solid 190 degree temp on the freeway.

Where you'd probably see a difference would be in the spark trim... If your scanner can monitor it, if the heads/combustion chamber are, in fact, running hotter, the engine won't be able to dial in as much spark advance as when it's cooler because of the detonation caused by the hot-spots. If the spark advance (under load, of course, so like leaving a stop light) is close to the same as with the stock pulley on it, and you're not seeing any significant performance loss off-idle, I wouldn't worry about it.

Now, all that being said, running near WOT, up a grade, pulling a trailer, the UD pulley may not be able to provide enough flow, and the temps might begin to rise beyond the heat carrying capacity of the system. If you think of it as an equation, the amount of heat the system can remove from the system always needs to be greater than the heat put into the system. (otherwise, it'll boil over). If the heat you're putting in can be carried away, you're fine. But the maximum heat put into it isn't going to be at idle... it'll be WOT, AC running, trans fluid warming up, 105 degrees, humid, running up-hill. The engineers design, test, and re-test the system for those operating conditions. That results in a vehicle that's got a massive cooling capacity at idle, but not so great of a margin under the worst-case conditions. Yes, it'll be over-cooled at idle, or at 20-30% power on the freeway, but it'll still be overcooled under the worst case scenario too.

Make sense? I'm rambling... sorry... just some food for thought.

-Joe
 






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