HHO: Is it alchemy? Or will it improve gas mileage on a ’99 4.0 SOHC Explorer?

You've made some good points. What I plan to do is a double-blind roundtrip test taken the same day in the same conditions using cruise control on an identical course. I've got a '99 Eddie Bauer with the trip computer that monitors mpg/fuel consumption/etc.

I'll pick a day when the weather is not forecast to change. I'll fill up at a particular pump right on the interstate, then hit the entrance ramp, put on my cruise control, take a 100 mile roundtrip (roundtrip to offset wind direction variables) back to the same pump, and log fuel used/mpg. Then I'll immediately fill up again, activate the HHO system, and do the same thing without messing with A/F ratios or other means. After that I'll do the same thing again, but this time take advantage of A/F and/or timing tuning and see what happens.

While I'm doing the test, I'll be monitoring CHT gauges to compare temps stock and A/F modified to verify the HHO can safely be used in conjunction with modified timing/AF ratios in order to take full advantage of the HHO.

The kit I'm planning to build is quite a bit more sophisticated than what I've seen posted so far and will probably cost me about $500 in raw materials. I don't know how long it will take me to build it but I'll be at the mercy of mail order for many of the parts needed and that may stretch out the assembly time more.

It will be at least a month before I can get around to start building this, but once I do I'll start a thread in the hybrid forum with a complete report. Once finished and tested it should confirm once and for all whether this can be done in practical/real life on a modern computerized engine.

My latest "in town" mileage using HHO can be found at http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1967700#post1967700 post # 1580.

New HHO generator

Since I am completely unsatisfied with the HHO kit I originally purchased ( see post # 1 in this thread ), I decided to evaluate another before building my own.

I acquired this one from a gentleman in Houston, TX.

This kit is night and day difference from the previous one. Just looking at it clearly shows the attention to detail.

The anode and cathode each have 4 strands of 19 gauge wire and are 60" long each. The wire is 316L stainless steel wire coiled around a ¼’ thick Lexan X shaped frame that is computer cut to give exact spacing between wires allowing for 20 rows of wire.

This new HHO generator mounted in the same location as the previous one and used the same electrical hookup. However, since there are two gas outlet ports, some rerouting of the ¼” vacuum line was required.

The electrolyte was distilled water ( filled to 1 inch from top of jar with 1 teaspoon of NaHCO3.

Upon firing up the truck, I was astonished by the eruption of bubbles arising in thre jar. I would venture to guess at least 100x the other HHO generator.

The A/F ratio at idle was 15/4 to 1.

I can’rt wait to hit the highway later today …

wow. looks professionally made.

i wonder though if you could explain... what is the tube for? is that the bubbler i've heard people make mention of? i understand what the two white outlets are on top, for the HHO to be sucked into the engine. also the red/black wingnuts for power/ground. but what are the blue and black caps?

just trying to make sure i understand everything.

From what i have read the spiral stainless is the most efficient. It sounds like you are getting a lot more out of it.

Awaiting results.

has anyone checked out this website and it's products, these look VERY nice
http://www.fuelfromh2o.com/

Al, that looks much nicer that the other one and easy to build as well. Waiting on pins and needles to see your results. Do you think heat will be an issue with that unit?

manaen said:

Al, Do you think heat will be an issue with that unit?

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I don't know yet. The heat can be controlled with the electrolyte concentration.

I shall be using my Lazar thermometer to keep an eye on the generator temperature.

Heat was never an issue with the first generator.

How did you find this new model? Was it on EBay? How much was it?

Here is another interesting HHO design. The first min or two is of a problem the guy had when his solenoid got stuck open. After that he disassembles the unit and shows its design.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk8wgqaD-qo

fixxxer said:

has anyone checked out this website and it's products, these look VERY nice
http://www.fuelfromh2o.com/

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One thing that concerns me after watching a few videos is water getting into the intake. In the link fixxxer posted above there are two YouTube videos. The second one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZ867Ca6aM) shows a very thorough design which makes sure that no water gets into your precious engine.

I'd love to know exactly what the flow rate is of the gas being produced by them... At idle, there may be a barely detectible change in the way it runs. However, at WOT, it seems analagous to peeing into Niagara Falls... I just find it hard to believe it's going to make a measurable difference.

Again, just thinking about it rationally, you're adding an unmetered and un-monitored amount of a gas into a system that's not monitoring its parameters to compensate for it. How could the system possibly compensate for it, when it can't measure the input or monitor its effective change in output? Furthermore, the generator puts out the same volume of gas at any engine RPM, correct? So at idle, the amount it affects the mixture is different than at half-throttle or full throttle because the dilution of the HHO gas changes based on the volumetric air flow through the system, doesn't it??

Finally (and admittedly, this is a rant, not directed at anyone here, but in a few HHO videos I've seen) STOP CALLING THEM FUEL CELLS!!!! They're not fuel cells, they're gas generators or hydrolysis units. They're not 'hydrogen fuel cells!!!' Hydrogen fuel cells generate electricity from the combination of hydrogen and oxygen into water. All these 'HHO generators' are doing is splitting the water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen molecules using hydrolysis. Furthermore, you don't end up with HHO molegules, you end up with H2 molecules and O2 molecules. The two gasses are mixed due to the design of the chamber, but it's still a mixture of gasses. HHO molecules are water.

-Joe

Joe, for many years I've respected your input into this forum. The points you make are spot-on and what has kept me until recently to ignore this HHO bandwagon since I've had the exact same concerns as you do. It all boils down to the scientific fact that you can pull hydrogen out of water, but in the real world it has a host of practical problems trying to convert that energy into a combustion engine and burn it. The real problem then is in developing an engineering design capable of efficiently converting the energy (and in a volume sufficient to make a significant difference in mpg).

The one I'm thinking of building builds up a hydro pressure that's regulated slightly below 65 psi, then is connected to a potentiometer turned by the throttle assembly that is modulated by a chip signaling the hydro intake into the system (depending on the throttle position). The second major system in the unit encompasses an adjustable F/A mix control unit that receives a call from the throttle position sensor to change the F/A ratio accordingly. IF it can produce enough hydro and IF it can regulate the F/A ratio accurately across different throttle positions while pumping it into the intake, it HAS to have a beneficial effect on ecomony, power, and engine life (the engine would burn much cleaner).

I do think there's a limit to what volumes of hydro a 12v system can electrolyze without severe overheating/overamping issues, so my gut feeling is that this would work best in smaller engines with less intake volumes. IE, it could work fine in my 4.0, would work better in my Dodge 3.3, can kick butt in little Honda engines 2.0 or less, but might not have as much effect in a huge V8.

I have a nagging instinct that we little guys are just playing around with kindergarten stuff trying to make this work, while there's a few Einsteins out there that [if given the incentive] are capable of designing just such a system - one that can overcome all of your issues, regulate input and control mix ratios, integrate well with modern computer systems in vehicles, and kick butt at the gas pump.

gijoecam said:

Furthermore, the generator puts out the same volume of gas at any engine RPM, correct? So at idle, the amount it affects the mixture is different than at half-throttle or full throttle because the dilution of the HHO gas changes based on the volumetric air flow through the system, doesn't it??

-Joe

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I would expect the goal in this endeavor is affect gas mileage at cruising speeds where the rpm's are between 1500 and 2000 or so.

Yeah, at WOT, there would be almost zero affect. That's what a nitrous system is for.

gijoecam said:

HHO molecules are water.

-Joe

Click to expand...

Where did you take chemistry?

fixxxer said:

has anyone checked out this website and it's products, these look VERY nice
http://www.fuelfromh2o.com/

Click to expand...

I like the concept and ideas of the 2nd video there, but the 1st one bothers me.
The first video there is of an old carbureted truck that in two fast tests, at idle, runs twice as long with HHO gases added.

Someone tell me, how does a carburetor know when a different fuel mixture is needed, less fuel? The answer is obvious, it cannot, that video is crap and how many people watching bought the idea for a carbureted vehicle. The concept should not help any vehicle with a carburetor.

Well said Joe, those are my concerns also. The fuel injection PCM's are very good at what they do, but the O2 sensor is the only information it has to adjust the A/F away from stock. An HHO system which could monitor the gases ingested would be the best way to create an input signal for another device to alter the O2 sensor signals.

This begs the question, given the vast knowledge of best A/F ratios for a normal engine, how do we determine what is best for certain amounts of HHO gases? Right now we are guessing that the indicated O2 signals will be leaner than normal, but what A/F ratio will be best for power/efficiency. This is like converting to propane and not knowing what A/F ratio is best, plus the compression needs change etc.

aldive said:

Where did you take chemistry?

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Al, I believe Joe is right on this one. Water is H2O, which is the same as HHO. You usually see it as HOH, as that is its atomic structure, but its practically all the same. If you wanted to be exact about it, I believe you would have yourself an equation like:

H2O + e- = 2H2 + O2

Has anyone searched for HHO on something other than wiki or things like google? When you go into the engineering data bases "Browns Gas" as you call it is pretty much nonexistant. The same applies to HHO. That I could find in about 45 minutes of searching databases such as the Compendex, Efunda, and Knovel, I can only find that one person has done any research and even he is not sure if HHO exists. His theory is just a WAG. (R.M. Santilli if you would like to know his name) I am just not sold that HHO even exists but the water vapor and elemental gases can explain the increase in mileage if there is any at all. But if you can run on a dyno and measure the fuel consumption in the same conditions for both HHO on and off, please show it because I am very interested about the actual effects of hooking water to the intake.

Also, I would like to see someone turn off the electricity from the bottle and replace the water with windshield washer and regulate the flow of methanol to see the effects.

Actually, HHO gas is NOT water - it's simply a non-bonded mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen in the exact proportion that it takes to create water - two hydrogen molecules, one oxygen. It's not quite water - it needs to be ignited to bond back into H2O.

This brings us to another issue, although it's more of a long-term one - when HHO gas is burned in an IC engine, it becomes water vapor in the exhaust. With an added amount of water vapor in the exhaust, wouldn't you need to apply a ceramic coating to the interior of the exhaust system to prevent rusting? I realise that this isn't much of an issue in an engine burning a small amount of HHO, but it's one more thing to think about if you're thinking of stepping up the volume of HHO burned.

BTW - I do have an HHO generator built, although I'm still playing with a different electrode design and have yet to test it in my rig.