Cam position sensor questions...

5.0 · February 19, 2008

1997 5.0 AWD with 180xxx miles, is making a loud chirping noise after I start the engine. No codes, but runs well.

From info read in other posts, I'm guessing cam position sensor.

After searching/reading for a few hours, I'm still confused...

Some of these questions are referencing the pics below. The pics are borrowed from jtsmith.

Can I use the alignment tool to find approximate TDC, and fine tune it with a timing pointer? It seems like if rotate the engine until the tool fits in the currently installed assembly, shouldn't I just be able to swap in the new assembly with the aligment tool in it?

If using a new assembly, is there any need to scribe the old assembly or engine block?

What part actually goes bad, the assembly with the red arrows?

Does the blue arrow part stay still while the black arrow part spins?

Does the black arrow part remain in good shape on the defective unit?

GeorgeR · February 19, 2008

Cam position sensor

IF the vane/stator is intact, (it us the semi circular item in the picture) then you may not have to worry about changing the synchro. Just get a new sensor and unplug the old one replace with the new one and that's it. Make sure that the new one is seated and oriented just like the old one. I don't see how you can get it wrong as long as you don't remove/or loosen the hold down screw.
I just finished replacing my whole syncro a couple of days ago. If it's not damaged (the vane/stator) it's a snap.
GR

GeorgeR · February 19, 2008

PS don't force anything, if it doesn't drop right in, reposition the new SENSOR.

GeorgeR · February 19, 2008

5.0 said:
1997 5.0 AWD with 180xxx miles, is making a loud chirping noise after I start the engine. No codes, but runs well.

From info read in other posts, I'm guessing cam position sensor.

After searching/reading for a few hours, I'm still confused...

Some of these questions are referencing the pics below. The pics are borrowed from jtsmith.

Can I use the alignment tool to find approximate TDC, and fine tune it with a timing pointer? It seems like if rotate the engine until the tool fits in the currently installed assembly, shouldn't I just be able to swap in the new assembly with the aligment tool in it?
<No, There is no need to swap anything other than the sensor itself>
If using a new assembly, is there any need to scribe the old assembly or engine block?
<maybe, but don't confuse the issue unless you must change the synchro>
What part actually goes bad, the assembly with the red arrows?
<Not if it is just the sensor>
Does the blue arrow part stay still while the black arrow part spins?
<Yes>
Does the black arrow part remain in good shape on the defective unit?
<With any luck it does. If not then you have to change the whole synchro.and then we will cover that if necessary>
<The sensor is the thing to the left of the assy in the top picture. The red arrow points to it but doesn't reach across the shaft. If that's all that needs replacing, just remove the 2 screws until if comes loose, then carefully turn the sensor so that you can get a small screwdriver into the disconnect and remove the sensor. Replace with the new sensor, make sure the new one is oriented toward the front of the engine, seated properly, tighten the screws and your done. As I said, if the stator is broken or damaged, then we can go through the procedure for replacing the synchronizer.>>

I just re read your post, let me start over:

Turdle · February 19, 2008

your questions seem like you have a good handle on this
yes-you can put the tool onto the old one to find tdc--

the other questions are meaningless, since you are replacing it anyway--

sometimes the rotating flag will disintegrate
the housing is stationary-however it will rotate for adjustment if you loosen the retaing bolt-

no need to scribe
the bushings wear causing noise

Turdle · February 19, 2008

GeorgeR said:
IF the vane/stator is intact, (it us the semi circular item in the picture) then you may not have to worry about changing the synchro. Just get a new sensor and unplug the old one replace with the new one and that's it. Make sure that the new one is seated and oriented just like the old one. I don't see how you can get it wrong as long as you don't remove/or loosen the hold down screw.
I just finished replacing my whole syncro a couple of days ago. If it's not damaged (the vane/stator) it's a snap.
GR

I think his synch is worn and noisy--

rwenzing · February 19, 2008

5.0 said:

Scribing is a homebrew substitute for the alignment tool - I used this method successfully on my 5.0L. It requires that the crankshaft angle is not changed while the synchronizer/CMP sensor assembly is being replaced.

The alignment tool is used on the Synchronizer with CMP sensor removed and the #1 cylinder already positioned at TDC, compression stroke. It is best to position the crankshaft correctly before removing the old assembly. This is the factory method and, if you have access to the tool, it's the best way to set up the CMP timing. If you are using a new assembly and the alignment tool, scribing is not necessary.

The aluminum body of the Synchronizer is held stationary while the shaft inside spins, turning a windowed rotor in the CMP sensor on top of the Synchronizer. The failure is usually due to lube in the aluminum bore drying out at high miles followed by wear, squeaking and possible seizing of the shaft in the bore. While this is happening, the CMP components on top may eventually start hitting each other and frag too. Even worse, if the synchronizer failure is allowed to progress all the way to seizure, it will stop the oil pump and take out the engine.

Be sure to get the correct assembly and tool. Ford used a Hall Effect CMP from 96~98 and a Variable Reluctance Sensor CMP from 99~01. Each takes a different alignment tool. For identification purposes, HE sensors have 3 electrical pins, VRS have 2. The assembly in Jon's pictures above is the earlier Hall Effect version.

GeorgeR · February 19, 2008

rwenzing said:
Scribing is a homebrew substitute for the alignment tool - I used this method successfully on my 5.0L. It requires that the crankshaft angle is not changed while the synchronizer/CMP sensor assembly is being replaced.

The alignment tool is used on the Synchronizer with CMP sensor removed and the #1 cylinder already positioned at TDC, compression stroke. It is best to position the crankshaft correctly before removing the old assembly. This is the factory method and, if you have access to the tool, it's the best way to set up the CMP timing. If you are using a new assembly and the alignment tool, scribing is not necessary.

The aluminum body of the Synchronizer is held stationary while the shaft inside spins, turning a windowed rotor in the CMP sensor on top of the Synchronizer. The failure is usually due to lube in the aluminum bore drying out at high miles followed by wear, squeaking and possible seizing of the shaft in the bore. While this is happening, the CMP components on top may eventually start hitting each other and frag too. Even worse, if the synchronizer failure is allowed to progress all the way to seizure, it will stop the oil pump and take out the engine.

Be sure to get the correct assembly and tool. Ford used a Hall Effect CMP from 96~98 and a Variable Reluctance Sensor CMP from 99~01. Each takes a different alignment tool. For identification purposes, HE sensors have 3 electrical pins, VRS have 2. The assembly in Jon's pictures above is the earlier Hall Effect version.

What Jon and Bob

said!'
Back to carbed engines.

5.0 · February 19, 2008

Thanks for the great info!

1. Find TDC compression stroke
2. Remove old sync
3. Soak new sync in oil
4. Drop new sync in engine using aligment tool; arrow facing forward
5. Tighten bolt

Now the most difficult part - finding all the parts

O-Reilley's has a Dorman sync for $43 including the tool.
They also have the tool only, OTC brand, for $47.

Is the OTC tool higher quality or more accurate?

Napa has a rebuilt sync for $67 or the Ford dealer has a new sync for $140.

Are quality/fitment issues common with the cheap Dorman part, or are the problems rare?

My choices so far are...

Dorman - $43 including tool
Napa rebuilt - $67 + cost of tool
Ford new - $140 + cost of tool

:dunno:

5.0 · February 19, 2008

GeorgeR said:
What Jon and Bob said!'
Back to carbed engines.

I'm right there with ya. Almost everything I do nowadays is a learning experience with the EFI engines, but it's all easy once I understand what's going on.

Turdle · February 19, 2008

5.0 said:
I'm right there with ya. Almost everything I do nowadays is a learning experience with the EFI engines, but it's all easy once I understand what's going on.

The more i understand , the better it is to have EFI-
it's a long curve, but in the long run things start to click and make perfect sense.
Here is a reference thread for your consideration while deciding on a ford or China part.

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206265&highlight=china+pos

If the sensor is good, I have heard of people using tri flo, or white lithium grease in the sensor housing.
You might also see if cleaning the busings well with a solvent, and oiling them fixes the squeak. I'd sure give it a try. Maybe a bit of synthetic transmission fluid will stifle it.

If you end up buying the tool-I'll buy it from you when you are finished. I had to borrow one. Now that there is another 98 in the household I am just playing the waiting game for my turn here again.

rwenzing · February 19, 2008

During the past year or so, aftermarket Chinese Synchronizer assemblies have been showing up on eBay for about $50 including the alignment tool. Judging by the price, I would guess that the one from Dorman is also Chinese and I can't help but wonder about quality control.

If you watch eBay, you can often find new take off Synchronizer assemblies (genuine Ford) for a comparable price or sometimes less. For years, the Mustang guys have been pulling them off new replacement Explorer engines because the 5.0L Mustang used a conventional distributor instead. There are new Ex 5.0L parts gathering dust all across the country. You just need to find them and then make sure that you have the correct year range.

96eb96 · February 19, 2008

The dorman is total crap. I wouldn't use it as a pencil sharpener. Some guy in the 911 forum installed the Dorman unit and the shear pin broke causing the oil pump not to spin and to lose oil pressure. He ended up pulling the oil pan to investigate the cause. Lots of problems in the Taurus forum too. I would go either Reman or New.

Since the dorman does come with the sensor and tool, it may be worth it for that. The sensor doesn't matter. Then you can get the Ford unit and save a few bucks for the CPS sensor.

GeorgeR · February 19, 2008

96eb96 said:
The dorman is total crap. I wouldn't use it as a pencil sharpener. Some guy in the 911 forum installed the Dorman unit and the shear pin broke causing the oil pump not to spin and to lose oil pressure. He ended up pulling the oil pan to investigate the cause. Lots of problems in the Taurus forum too. I would go either Reman or New.

Since the dorman does come with the sensor and tool, it may be worth it for that. The sensor doesn't matter. Then you can get the Ford unit and save a few bucks for the CPS sensor.

If you cruise the various threads, you will find that there are numerous situations where the dorman synchro was faulty out of the box. It does, however, come with a sensor and tool. It is of new chinese manufacture. The Cardone reman unit is done in the US.
I just changed out my CMP this past weekend. I tried to use the dorman part, but, I couldn't get it to even mesh (install). The new reman unit done by Cardone went right in.
96eb96 makes a good point. Use the install tool and sensor from the dorman assy, then you have it all plus a spare synchro. (altho the Cardone from Napa comes with a new sensor, at least mine did.)
The dorman set up costs about the same as a new sensor from Parts America,(Advance Auto Supply) Don't know yet about sensor quality. The Dorman unit is considered a new part by the supplier.

rizzjc · February 19, 2008

This is interesting, and I understand about none of it, but do have a question. Would this likely chirp all the time once it starts? I have a chirp that was sporadic, but now chirps every time I start the truck up. It usually goes away, but it's getting more and more frequent. Not wanting to deal with it, I took it to a shop, left it for a week, and of course, it never chirped. I've been leaning toward the power steering pump, as I've already replaced every other pulley within the last 20k miles or so. I don't want to hijack this thread, just wondering if it could be this same problem, and how I would know.

96eb96 · February 19, 2008

rizzjc said:
This is interesting, and I understand about none of it, but do have a question. Would this likely chirp all the time once it starts? I have a chirp that was sporadic, but now chirps every time I start the truck up. It usually goes away, but it's getting more and more frequent. Not wanting to deal with it, I took it to a shop, left it for a week, and of course, it never chirped. I've been leaning toward the power steering pump, as I've already replaced every other pulley within the last 20k miles or so. I don't want to hijack this thread, just wondering if it could be this same problem, and how I would know.

run the engine with no belt for a while. If it chirps you ruled out all the accessories. "Chirping" is commonly this sensor.

Turdle · February 19, 2008

rizzjc said:
This is interesting, and I understand about none of it, but do have a question. Would this likely chirp all the time once it starts? I have a chirp that was sporadic, but now chirps every time I start the truck up. It usually goes away, but it's getting more and more frequent. Not wanting to deal with it, I took it to a shop, left it for a week, and of course, it never chirped. I've been leaning toward the power steering pump, as I've already replaced every other pulley within the last 20k miles or so. I don't want to hijack this thread, just wondering if it could be this same problem, and how I would know.

Joe-
try this

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161590&highlight=chirp

rizzjc · February 19, 2008

jtsmith said:
Joe-
try this

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161590&highlight=chirp

Thanks, I'll check that out. I did plenty of "CHIRP" searches, and never came across this. I don't think I'll be doing it myself if it turns out to be this though.

Turdle · February 19, 2008

rizzjc said:
Thanks, I'll check that out. I did plenty of "CHIRP" searches, and never came across this. I don't think I'll be doing it myself if it turns out to be this though.

Joe-I know for a fact you can do this very well. After your timing cover nightmare this will be a 2 beer ordeal. serious.
It sounds way more intimidating than it really is. After you are finished is when you say--"why did they make it sound so difficult?"

GeorgeR · February 19, 2008

rizzjc said:
Thanks, I'll check that out. I did plenty of "CHIRP" searches, and never came across this. I don't think I'll be doing it myself if it turns out to be this though.

Hi Joe, it's not that big of a job once you understand what's involved. Certainly no bigger than the egr valve replacement, (in my opinion), that you helped me with a few weeks ago. BTW I found it easier to remove the upper intake manifold to do that.
My truck threw a code which was what started me on this cmp thing. Mine didn't make any noise. The stator was just obliterated. Ran good still lousy mileage. Haven't had the new cmp synchro long enough yet to tell if the mileage has improved, but it runs great. A mechanics stethiscope might help find the chirp if you can get it to happen at the right time.
GR

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