New motor oils = wiped lifters

This is my lifter out of my Edelbrock heads with high valve spring pressure. Completely wiped.



And here is the associated cam lobe wiped out. It's the first lobe.

Seems there are a rash of lifter and cam related problems in the past couple of years.
It was driving my engine builder crazy along with other engine builders across the country.
The problem...removig Zinc from motor oils. It puts a tremendous strain on the cam and lifters now.
So much so that Comp cams, which I ran won't warranty their products with out adding their additive.
My cam and lifters were installed 4 years ago when they still contained Zinc.
But when it was not added anymore to the oils, that's when I started noticing that I had to keep tighting my rockers down more.
So I called up Summit and they said, yes there has been a tremendous surge in cam related failures. They even told me when I place the order for new cam and lifters to make sure to add one of the additives that they carry. He recommended one by Comp Cams, no matter what cam I run.
I did some research and found that people are running diesel oil which most contain Zinc in lieu of the new oils.
My own son who I called today is a Certified Honda repairman in DC and said the same thing. He runs 5w-40 Turbo diesel in his highly modified Honda.

I really don't want to add a $10 to $15 bottle of additive if I don't need to, but don't want to go through the same lifter problem.
Might mention also that mine are hydraulic lifters also, not solid.
With that said, I called up Amsoil and they knew what I was talking about,rightfully so, I would think.
They say they have put in an additive that addresses this problem.
Now we all know that Amsoil oil can go longer between changes, but in fact if they do already contain the additive, then this would be even more cost effective.
But I need some official statement or add from Amsoil addressing this problem before I use their product without adding an additive.

Anyone else heard or have had problem with non-zinc oils? And if you did in the last 2 to 3 years, have had cam related problems, then this might have been the culprit.

Here is a link to Comp Cams that I got from Summit.
Interesting to read the bottom paragraph.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-159

YEP. I only own one non-roller engine, but it sees Rotella simply for the ZDDP. Fact is, most new engines in the last ten years have a roller valvetrain one way or the other. Oil manufacturers do not seem to care about anything older than that - emissions are the holy grail now. Even hydraulic non-roller lifters can be wiped out - there's still a whole lot of pressure on the surface of the cam where ZDDP used to act as a sort of "chemical roller."

The question is: what else will they remove that actually NEEDS to be there?

Sorry to see your cam wiped out so fast.

Yep, the rumors are true about the lack of zinc due to emission standards causing valve train problems.. Diesel oils do contain more zinc but i've always been leary about it being thicker oil and not lubing the rest of the engine properly..

Thanks for those responses. Early today, other then talking to Comp Cams, Summit tech dept, Jeggs tech dept and my engine builder. I thought I was the only one that heard of this problem.
Went to Auto Zone and Advanced. Did not have a clue what I was talking about. I just wanted some cam break in oil that is added to my oil because of the low Zinc.
Then went to a local parts place/engine builder. The engine builder told me that I have my rockers to tight. I told him this was not my first Rodeo, and they were not to tight. As I was leaving I talked to the counter man and said do you carry Comp Cams? He said yes.
"Do you carry their Cam additive?" After a funny look, he said no". Then I politely asked if he could go to their Webb site. Low and behold he found it and read up on it. Hmm, he said never heard of this.
But told me I could buy straight on-line from Comp Cams which I will tonight.
Mean while I guess the engine builder will keep miss diagnosing cam problems as the owner over tightening the valves.
Here is a great link about the problem. Interesting what Crane Cams and Quaker State had to say. STP never returned the phone call when this was aired. They wanted to know how much ZDDP was in their product.
Also it drove my engine builder crazy trying to find out what was going on with his Old School built engines.
http://www.opelclub.com/ZDDP2.pdf
It's also interesting why they are deleting this much needed additive in the above link. Going Green is starting to SUCK.
Everyone should read this who runs the older vintage engines.
One other thing, my son who told me today has been running the Rottala diesel in his Honda for some time now. And he is a certified Honda technician. Wished he had of told his Ole man lol.
Also to help others, I wonder If someone should do a sticky on this. I'm not good at that stuff or least a link to the above site?

It's also interesting that I installed this cam 4 years ago when oil still had the good stuff. Zinc really helps other parts of the engine also. But it's been the last two years that it seemed that I had to adjust the valves more. Also I have really high spring pressure. Not only did I wipe the cam and one lobe. The head gasket went in that cylinder also. Might have developed a hot spot, due to the poor mixture.
Just added another site. This is Comp Cams break in oil. Interesting what they have to say also.
will order tonight.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-159

This is from Comp Cams
http://www.compperformancegroupstor...Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=159&Category_Code=

And some more
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/ccrp_0702_break_in_new_cam/post_lube.html

This is what valvoline has to say. Interesting what they say in paragraph 5.
http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/

This is all very interesting. I wonder if the valve train in the OHV V6 is affected at all? Granted I'm sure pretty much all of us have been using the newer oil for a couple years without any adverse affects (that we know of) but it still makes me wonder. I'm tempted to see if I can find an additive or different oil that would remedy this. I don't want my old OHV to be suffering from more wear than it needs to.

This shouldn't be a problem in the OHV...

Since this engine is using roller lifters...But I have come across a number of older block Ford stroker engines running non-roller lifters that have flat lobe or lobes...When I asked about the oil being used each owner have no idea what I was talking about...

I understand that emissions or lack thereof are important to the global footprint but where is this movement leading us? Granted I hadn't built a non-roller engine in years but I know plenty of people still running regular lifter equipped engines...

To rookieshooter how long did it take to do this to the lifters?

This has been a well known problem for Jeep guys the past few years as well. The Jeep 4.0 was one of the only flat tappet cam motors still produced till 06'. Many of us (Jeepers) have had cam related failures, heck I know one guy that lost his engine due to cam failure at 800 miles.

I have done an exhaustive amount of research on the topic, and will only run valvoline premium blue synthetic (because it has an excellent additive package, and comes in 5-40 which I need for my climate), or the alternative below. Diesel oil is good, but there are those that would say you increase the risk of cat failure due to the amounts of additives in diesel oils.

The other alternative is an ACEA A3 rated oil (mobil 1 high mileage is ACEA A3).

An A3 oil must meet much tighter tolerances (in cam wear values especially) than Most US standards (its a Euro spec oil). High mileage oils are allowed additional additive due to their specific category, so you get more protection. These Ford engines may not be flat tappet but I'll stick to an ACEA A3 from now on just to be sure. 1 mpg is worth longevity (I'm now running Mobil 1 HM A3 in a Jeep with 29k).

I have quite a bit of related information on this topic I have posted in various Jeep forums I could forward you if you like (not that its really all that relevant). I hope its ok to love both my Jeep and the explorer.

Good point about your your V6. Wish I had an answer. All this I've just learned in the last 24 hours.
I'm so glad Summit told me about the problem, or I would have put the engine back together with out ever knowing that it was just a Band aid fix.
Went to Comp Cam Webb site and was going order their cam oil. But the shipping was a little high. I'll try this really good speed shop who also builds engines and see if they have the same stuff or equivalent.

ranger7ltr said:

Since this engine is using roller lifters...But I have come across a number of older block Ford stroker engines running non-roller lifters that have flat lobe or lobes...When I asked about the oil being used each owner have no idea what I was talking about...

I understand that emissions or lack thereof are important to the global footprint but where is this movement leading us? Granted I hadn't built a non-roller engine in years but I know plenty of people still running regular lifter equipped engines...

To rookieshooter how long did it take to do this to the lifters?

Click to expand...

Well all I can say it that the last two years, it seemed I had to adjust the valves more often. Then last year I noticed a little more bounce of the needle in my vacuum guage. It all happened rather slowly and it always seemed that it never quite had the ump that it used to have. Then a couple of days ago it just went.

Just added. I also noticed the sound of tapping rockers indicating that it was getting loose between rockers and valve stem. Thought the nuts were just backing off.

There are two ways I adjust the valves...One was to do it while running which can be very messy and the other I like most is I have a Harmonic balancer that I degreed in at every 90 degrees. Just start at the number one firing order, then turn crank to next 90 deg. mark and adjust the next cylinder in the firing order.

I am considering getting a bottle of Lucas Oil Engine break-in additive for mine next time I change the oil. Whether it needs it or not, I would just feel better, and it can't hurt anything. I will be passing the word on to my dad as well. The motor in his '90 GMC truck was rebuilt right before he bought it and may very well be subject to this problem.

It shouldn't be necessary to add an additive to your oil if you start out with the best (and correct) oil for your application. Granted I mean not necessary, but that doesn't stop a lot of us.

I was told by a petro/syn chemist that classically, additives (like zinc and phosphorus) were added to inferior oils to make them work for a specific application.

I've been Told by this same individual (who also is a flat tappet afficionado) that an A3 oil will provide the best protection. For me this includes running a high mileage oil in a low mileage engine. I'll sacrifice a tiny tiny bit in economy (High mileage oils may decrease mileage), for better protection.

Engine assembly lube is some pretty slipper stuff. I use the Torco brand (gets good reviews)

I don't know about what you said about inferior oils. That means prior to 3 or 4 years ago all oil was inferior because they had zinc in it? If Zinc is not important then why all the lifter failure on push rod engines. All these engine builders can't be wrong.
Now if I had of only listened to one engine builder in town who says it's just that I tightened the rockers down to low, becuase he never heard of the problem. Just glad I researched it.

And now the top oil companies are recognizing the problem and are addressing it.
Did you read any of the links?
So Quaker State, Valvoline and even Amsoil addressing this problem are wrong. I use the best oil money can buy.

Now my Edlebock aluminum heads come with valve spring pressures around 120 pounds at seat and 350 pounds at full lift. This may very well be higher then some and could have accelerated the lifter wear when they deleted the Zinc from the oil.

Now after a couple of oil changes including the Comp Cam, Trick Flow or other Zinc additives for cams, I will try some of the oils that have addressed the problem and then stop using the Cam oil additives. If I find one with the right amount of Zinc.

Well the way you reiterated it is not quite how I intended it to be interpreted. I know Modern oils still have zinc, just not as much (I think its only 800ppm now right)?

Yes I have read many, many links. I use additives myself (sometimes-see the Torco statement above). I didn't state that it was wrong to use an oil that has an additive to counteract premature cam wear. Just that it shouldn't be necessary (not that additives are not a viable option of putting back in what was lost, but new products may be manufactured without needing a secondary bandaid).

For instance:
If a modern oil like an A3 spec oil can be manufactured to require cam failure specs that exceed prior oils that were relying on huge slugs of zinc and phosporus, then yes anyone in their right mind would call that a superior product.

I don't know if you're having a bad day, but lets not take it out on each other.

Actually I've had two bad days.
Now I understand what you meant. I agree.
Here is a link from Joe Gibbs racing products that sell an oil with Zinc for hydraulic lifters.

http://www.bizrate.com/automotive-care/oid1735818465.html

I see on the link that Firestone sells it. Might just have to ride down there tomorrow.

I can post up a handful of very interesting cam related tolerance tests on different oil grades, diesel oil spec breakdowns, and stuff like that that would be useful if you want---Just not today-I'd have to hunt em' down and I'm about done on here tonight.

I think I may have read that although racing oils are great for high amounts of anti wear additives like Z&P, they are not designed for long term use (like running it for 3-5k miles as racing oils are typically used for that track day and changed), and because of that they contain higher amounts of axidizing agents that would be not the est possible option if used long term in a passenger car setting.

I'll look some stuff up, and pile it together (I've been researching this for 3 years so I don't have it all in 1 spot).

I think the Gibbs racing would corner more of the racing type engines, but there are a lot of push rod engine guys on this site that might be interested. Now if they come up with other alternatives to Zinc for push rod engines with hydraulic lifters that would be great...but what I'm getting out of all this is that there is none yet?
Post away, any and all info would be great.

Personally I'm not looking for long periods between oil changes. I like every 3000 to 4000 intervals. I can get a better feel for the engine that way in case I find water, coolant or other contaminants in the drained oil. So if they came out with one that even needed changing that much I would not mind.

Here's my problem, tomorrow or the next I'm installing the cam and lifters and applying copious amounts of the age old molybdenum to the cam. One of the secrets to good cam life from my many years of racing is to have it fire on the first try. Well I'll even prime the engine by using an adapter connected to my drill to get the oil flowing.
Then run engine the usual way to break cam in.
Many years ago in some of my all out racing engine, even when they did have zinc, I would only run the outer valve spring and then after about a half hour of continuous running add the other sprin.
Now here is my problem, wondering what oil to use? With out a doubt I need something with enough Zinc. So what do you guys think? Could even go the Gibbs racing oil route since It would not be long on the very first change and then go to a over the counter brand. I've been told by just too many experts that I must have an oil with the zinc or add it to it. Just don't know which to buy?
No matter what the first time firing up it will have the Comp Cam additive. Could go with any top shelf oil and just add the additive at each oil change. That might be the safest.

Willard said:

I am considering getting a bottle of Lucas Oil Engine break-in additive for mine next time I change the oil. Whether it needs it or not, I would just feel better, and it can't hurt anything. I will be passing the word on to my dad as well. The motor in his '90 GMC truck was rebuilt right before he bought it and may very well be subject to this problem.

Click to expand...

Great idea. I found their webb site and darn it they don't make an additive for flat tappit cams. And it contains Zinc. May have Auto zone or Advanced order me some.

How did you find out about it?

Here's the stuff

http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=82&catid=9&loc=show
Might just call them up about why not recommened for street cars. Might just have a whole bunch of Zinc and could eat up the catastrophic convertor?

Thing about racing oils is that they usually have little to no detergent package and so are not really suitable for daily driver use. This isn't something I have info to prove at the tip of my fingers, but it's what I've seen thrown around at Bobistheoilguy.com.

I've had a really hard time finding diesel oil in 10-30 or 5-30. Rotella synthetic is apparently available in those weights, but I've never seen anything but 5-40 or 15-40 in any store. For the record, both my Jeep and Ford 4.0s seem to love the Rotella syn 5w-40, but this is only anecdotal as I haven't had analysis done on either engine's oil yet. It's also the only oil that will run in all three of my vehicles AND my motorcycle, so that's pretty convenient in itself.

The 4.0 V6 probably will have no cam problems as it's a roller cam engine, but I would definitely be wary of the 2.9 or 2.8, or any other non-roller cam Ford block.

It's surprising how many otherwise knowledgeable people aren't aware that this chemistry change has been going on in the past several years with a lot of terrible results.

Good insight into this. Your probably right about the JGR oil. I should have picked up on that. Like moscar80 said,

I was having a bad day

Click to expand...

,
If my local Firestone dealer do in fact carry it, I'll ask if they have a type that is DD friendly. I'll report back with info on this today

Seems I was a little late coming on board about this problem untill disaster struck.
The oil site that you mentioned. A counterman at AutoZone was trying to tell me to go to this Bob guy site. Going to check into it.
My V8 Bronco used to have a 2.8 with solid lifters. I bet it would have shown some significant valve train wear.
What I read about the Zinc that it really did have some great metal to metal protection, especially where you have oil pressure against metal...like in your rings.
If Zinc was causing emission problems that were not compatible with the catalytic converter, then then Big Brother should have changed or at least looked into the materials that were in the converter instead of forcing the oil companies to change.
The greedy oil companies knew about what would happen to push rod flat tappet engines. But this would have caused a stir in the community.

I bought the wife a Ford Focus, guess I need to see what kind of valve train geometry that has.

Summit Tech dept told me that either Valvolene or Quaker state should have some oil that there going back to adding more Zinc. Hmmm the more things change the more they stay the same.

All my flat tappet engines over the years always got well over 200,000 with no lifter problems what so ever, and some did not get oil changes untill 12K or more miles. I'm not one who religiously changes oil either, the more you start up a engine after draining oil the more harm you put on the lifters and all moving parts. With that said, on my B2 When I ripped out all the wiring and designed what I think is a much better electrical system including many relays, such as I did for my headlights. Took a Toyota wiring harness which incorporates relays that sends the high headlight amps through it instead of the headlight switch, which is a potently fire hazard.
What I'm getting at, is that I have 3 switches that must be flipped before the engine fires. One I have to flip up for my Billet MSD ignition to operate. This way I can turn the engine over without firing. Great for adjusting the valves coupled with my fully degreed Harmonic balancer that I took a 3 sided file and marked 3 additional marks, all exactly 90 deg. apart.
So you can see I'm particular with my valve adjustment.
This 302 with the cam it has, manifold, Holly carb, L&L headers, and Xpipe exhaust for proper pulse control is one of the sweetest sounding V8s on the road. Well, it used to be HA HA.
Plus if it's been setting for some time in cold weather, I can turn the engine over with no combustion forces on the bearings and preload the journals with oil.