'98 Explorer XLT power windows stopped working

[Alex9]

The power windows on my '98 explorer XLT stopper working. Neither the driver control for all four windows nor the 3 passenger controls work to move the windows up or down. I have checked the 3 fuses (2 relay & 1 for PW motor) all are fine. I opened the black box w/ the relays under the driver side firewall area and relpaced each relay individually to test is the relay was bad (it wasn't) (I was not sure which one was the power window relay).

Any thoughts on what may be wrong? I have read where a power window master switch can go bad. Which switch is this? Also, I am thinking that I may have a break in the ground, possibly in the door? Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you.
Alex9

 

[budwich]

how did you check your relays / fuses...???? meter I hope... anyways, you need voltage coming into the accessory relay and leaving.... towards your windows. It isn't a ground problem at least in terms of the window motors since they get theirs basically at each door. It could be a ground on a "controlling" relay used to "start" the system (ie. accessory delay relay, battery saver relay). Again a meter is the tool.

 

[Alex9]

I checked the fuses w/ a continuity tester. I checked the relays by buying a new relay and removing each relay and replacing it with the new one. I did this for each relay in the black box under the dash and then tested the window to see if it works. I did this process 7 or so times (for each relay in the box). Took a little while.

 

[budwich]

You need a meter to determine what "conditions" are not setup to cause operations of relays, not just swapping relays which may or may not help..... and a continuity tester only tells you that you have voltage... hence I guess your "speculation" about the ground.... but I think it is mostly misguided. Anyways, you can use your tester to check if voltage is "leaving" the accessory delay relay when it is operated. If not, then that's your problem area. If so, then you likely have a break a little "further away" towards the door / controller.

 

[Alex9]

Maybe I'm saying this wrong... Continuity tester - I have a test light with an aligator clip on one side. When the clip grounds on the metal body of the light, the light turns on. So what I did to test each fuse was to attach the aligator clip to one side of the fuse and touch the other side of the fuse with the light body. When I did the light came on and hence there was continuity through the fuse.

I'm not sure what you mean by conditions. I am fairly a novice with troubleshooting electrical problems. I thought a loose/broken ground could be the issue b/c the fuses are ok. Lack of ground could cause the windows not to work without blowing a fuse.

I'm not sure which relay is the power windows relay. I have been unable to determine this with Chilton/Hayes manuals and there is nothing in the owners manual. Do you know which one it is?

 

[budwich]

a continuity tester is just that it tests continuity. however, there are "conditions" that are beyond continuity (which is just one test). For example, the continuity can't tell if there is sufficient voltage to operate a relay, it can only tell you that you have some voltage.... ok? your test proves that the fuses (some fuses) are good. That's great.... assuming you checked the right ones. as you mentioned, you need to know which relay is question is operating and whether voltage is actually going thru it to your windows. The relays in question are all in the relay module which is in the center of your dash area. You need to check these for proper conditioning (voltage -12v and ground on windings -> the things that cause the relay to operate and 12v on the contacts / switch points which is "sent" to the appropriate thing ... in this case your window motor). Without knowing these things, it will be tough to isolate your problem to a component or wire or connector.

 

[Alex9]

Ok. Makes sense.

How do I check the relays? Do I unplug a relay in the black box (relay module) and put one side of my meter to ground (chasis) and the other into the plug where the relay came out of. I recall there were 5 prongs on the relay. Any idea which female should be hot when the switch is power window is activated? Also, I assume I will need to repeat this process for each relay? correct?

 

[budwich]

pins 1 and 2 are usually the coil to activate the relay while pins, 3,4,5 are the contacts for switching the voltage. you need to have a ground on one of the pins and voltage on the other (considering 1 & 2)... you can have the relay out for this check. In my 96 drawings , the "output" (ie voltage leaving the relay towards what ever you want operating) comes out on pin 3.... so if you don't see it there when before or after it operates then you have a problem.... of course, you need the relay in place for this to happen. that's your basic electronics 101 for ford. good luck.

 

[CDW6212R]

You can just swap a couple of the existing relays, more than one or two will not be bad.

Someone just posted this issue last week, they had a weird broken wire problem in the main power wire in the LF door.

Likely it's a relay, main wire(+/-), or the LF master switch. Figure that it's something in the LF door, pull the door panel and check the power and ground behind the main switch.

The power is the one blue/black wire, the ground is the large black wire going to the switch. Check those first, if those check out then aim for the switch itself. All of the eight window switch terminal wires on the back should test as grounds(no buttons pushed). One of those is the ground used for any window used.

Start with that, the issue will likely be found by then. Good luck,

 

[Alex9]

OK. I have determined that my blue/black wire lead into the master control switch is not hot when the ignition is on. All 8 of the window switches are grounded w/ no buttons pushed. I have checked all of the fuses in the passenger compartment to determine if any are bad - they are all good. It seems to me that I must have a break in the blue/black lead; since this comes from the fuse box.

Before I begin the process of digging into the electrical wires between the switch and the fuse box, I have a couple of questions. 1) Does the blue/black wire come from the fuse box in the engine compartment or in the passenger compartment? Does anyone know which fuse the blue/black goes to? and 2) Should I be able to test the power windows by running a hot lead from the battery to the blue/black terminal on the switch and pressing one of the power window switches? 3) Is there any chance that the blue/black lead may have come off the fuse box terminal 4) should I disconnect the battery ground when I start digging?

Budwich/CDW6212R - Any other thoughts? Thanks for you help

 

[budwich]

I don't believe that the master switch gets its "stuff" from the fuse box. As I indicated, the accessory delay relay has to be operated to cause voltage to appear at the windows / controls. so if you aren't seeing any voltage at your master switch, it could be a broken wire (door post... trace the color) or the relay not operating. My bet is a broken wire in the post.

as for running a wire from battery to your LB/BK, it will prove that your windows work.... which I don't think is the issue but it will help get "operational".

 

[CDW6212R]

The blue/black power wire comes from the dash harness. I didn't fully trace that wire when I did my custom window wiring, but I noted that it was there in the center area of the dash wiring. It does likely go directly to a relay, there are a couple of relay boxes in the dash. I could find out where in my spare 98 dash harness if necessary.

Have you checked the under hood fuse yet which feeds the window circuit. I'm double checking before suggesting to dig into the dash for that relay, or the door jamb connector. The fuse in the distribution box is easier to check, do that first.

If that's good, then you should check the relay in the dash if it's location is known. If not, the connector in the LF door jamb can be unplugged with a 10mm socket easily. You can pull back the covering over the wires to find/tug on the blue/black wire, to find which one it is in the end, to test it.

Let us know if you need to trace the relay in the dash still.

 

[Alex9]

Don,

I did check all fuses in the fuse box in the engine compartment - All were good.

I have looked under the dash at one black box with a cover on it. After removing the cover there were 7 relays of the size that fits the relay I purchased from the auto parts store. I would guess the PW relay is one of these seven but I don't know which one it is.

Also, I learned a new piece of info from my wife who was driving the car when this problem started. She noted that two weeks prior to all of the windows failing, the passenger side rear window would not work from either switch for about two days. Then it starting working again. Any ideas if this earlier malfunction may be connected to all windows not working?

 

[budwich]

you got "post wiring" problems which are common in all vehicle as the wiring gets "tired" from opening and closing the drivers door which gets used "often". The wires get fatigue and break / make depending on the position of your door.... sometimes totally sometimes partial..... start tracing / pulling /wiggling

 

[Alex9]

Ok. I ran a temporary hot off the fuse box to the master switch (where the blue/black ties in). Windows work. So this confirms either the relay is bad or there is a break in the hot lead somewhere between the fuse box and the master switch (probably in the door jam as you both have suggested).

Budwich- Why do you think it is a wire issue instead of the relay? your response to my last post makes me believe you are pretty confident that it is a wire issue.

If it is a wire issue, is there any probloem with running a new wire of the fusebox/battery terminal with and in line fuse so I don't have to rip the existing wiring apart. I think this means that I will lose the relay, which I think means my windows can go up or down when no key in the ignition. Is this correct and if so, a problem for any reason?

 

[budwich]

basically, at least in 96, there are other things off the relay that would be giving you problems IF it was a relay issue... so it probably ain't. "Temporary" wiring is OK but there are "reasons" why the system is setup the way it is and circumventing things "haphazardly" may lead to greater problems down the road. Anyways, the actual circuit isn't just a "fuse and wire" as there are a couple of relays in the circuit that DO rely on your "key action". Anyways, to each his own... I would probably do a similar thing IF I couldn't find the problem.

 

[CDW6212R]

Alex, the windows require a lot of power through the power/ground wires. I doubt that any other circuits are run by the same blue/black wire. By bypassing that one power wire it's clear that the big issue is that, and not the ground wire.

I'd hunt the failure of that short wire circuit, it should not take too long. There is a short length in the door, one going to the dash relay, one leading to the firewall, and one going to the fuse.

If the relay is easy to find and check, that would be the way to go. I have extra wiring, so I could find the two wires going into the LF door jamb connector very quickly. I'd want to check for power on the inner one, and continuity of the door wire.

FYI, the connector in the LF door jamb, that is a wonderful feature of our truck's wiring. That connector reduces flexing and damage of the wiring greatly. There is absolutely no flexing of the door wiring, it is stationary always. The car wiring comes in from below, the two holes are not directly across from each other. That wiring has less stress on it, the wires are twisted, over a longer distance than older connector wires. Any damage found in that wiring will be caused by mishandling, not by normal use.

Can you see any of the wires on the backside of that relay box? Where exactly did you find it?

 

[Alex9]

I found the black box (relay box) under the driverside dash area. from the viewpoint of my back on the driveside floor mat and head under the steering wheel near the pedles, the box is lodcated on the left side. It is a plastic box with a plastic cover. The box is attached with two screws on either side. I was able to remove one of the screws and turn the box to expose the bundle of wires going into the box. However, it is really tight space and I was not able to determine if the blue/black was one of the wires in the bundle. It sounds like I need to begin the process of tracking the blue/black wire from the master control switch and test each segment for hot to determine which segment is loose/bad. From there I can fix the connection or replace the segment to the switch. Thoughts?

 

[CDW6212R]

Okay, give me time to get outside to hunt my extra 98 dash harness. I'll dig it out and see where the blue/black wire goes. You could try swapping some of those relays around, to see if anything else is affected.

 

[Alex9]

Got it!! I opened the door jam wire connector and about 2 inched down the blue/black line the wire was split in two. And I have hot on the incoming side. Must have been from age. Hard to believe that a wire can come apart like this. Time to put it together. Thanks CDW & Budwich a lot. I'll let you know if everything is ok once it is back together. Looks like I have found the issue!