air locker or e-locker?

[BonesDT]

i got stuck in the snow too many times and i've decided to get a locker.

these are the types of lockers i know of:
full-time/spindle
automatic/EZ locker
electronic/e-locker
air locker

full-time is out of the question, its a daily driver. i rather be able to choose the rare times i want to engage my locker so i dont think id want the EZ locker, plus i dont need it clicking around while driving.

so basically my question is what are the differences between the e-locker and the air locker (besides the obvious methods of engaging). price is not an issue, i want to get the best. i will be installing it only in the rear, because my rear flexes better so will probably have the traction when needed, and i have dreams of a solid axle in the future so i dont want to waste it on the front, and i only have enough for one. installation difficulty isnt too much of a factor unless there is a serious difference. i dont mind putting some extra time in the install (drilling holes for the wires/tubes)

i am leaning towards the air locker because it just sounds more badass, durable, powerful, and i get the benefits of the on-board air compressor.

also, what are the best companies for each kind. it seems as if ARB air locker is the biggest name. i know the ARB is an 'open' type when disengaged. is there any part-time lockers that are of the 'limited slip' type when disengaged? that way i can get an extra benefit in the rain on the highway.

 

[Robb]

I predict this debate to go on and on, and get a little nasty..................

For Air selectable: ARB, plain and simple. Yes, it is open when disengaged.

For electric selectable: Detroit Electrac It is limited slip when disengaged.

For Automatic (since money is no object), Full Detroit Locker.

All of these are full carrier replacements. They will require differential setup. If you are not experienced in diff rebuilds (or just don't want to do it), you have to include the cost of install when comparing prices. Only the non-carrier automatics won't require this additional cost.


After all my research, I chose to go with Electrac, but that is just me.

 

[BonesDT]

ok thanks. that explains a lot, because i saw the thread for the EZ locker install but i thought i heard elsewhere it wasnt that easy to install a differential. now i see thats where the carrier part comes in.

i will definately be doing all the work on my own. i have no experience inside a differential at all, but that doesnt phase me, i am very good with my hands and i have done other serious work on autos before. and half the reason for this is for the learning experience as well.

the biggest hurdle though for a diff rebuild would be the special tools i need. are there any serious tools/gauges i need to do this?

what are the pros and cons of the three you mentioned?

 

[Hokie]

Isn't there a guy in NYC doing an SAS on his '00 XLT? He just did gears and has the tools required to properly setup the backlash and what not. Might want to look him up.

 

[Jefe]

Electric Selectables:
The Detroit Elec-trac is the only selectable locker that is a L/S when unlocked.
Eaton has their E-locker.
Auburn has their "ECTED" electric locker which is a bascially a variable (0-100%) L/S, but its OEM only. ?

I have an Elec-trac in the front. It's great. I'd highly recommend it.

I currently have a PowerTrax No-slip in the rear and it is also great, especially for a lunch box style locker, and for the price. It will get replaced sooner or later with either a Detroit Locker, or an Elec-trac (still debating) since I don't expect the stock carrier to hold up forever.

 

[Robb]

Originally posted by Hokie
Isn't there a guy in NYC doing an SAS on his '00 XLT? He just did gears and has the tools required to properly setup the backlash and what not. Might want to look him up.

Bret makes an excellent point. cdsl227 is doing a SAS right now and has experimented with doing his own diff setups. You can see his project here. He is in Brooklyn and is a very nice guy!! I have met him personally. You may want to PM him about setting up your diff when the time gets near. I am almost positive that he is willing to help you out as much as he can.

 

[Lefy]

I'd say get the detroit elec trac because it's limited then locked when ever you want it.
that the one i'd be getting if i had the cash.

the arbs i've seen peopl have problems with air lines not engaging but you'll be streeting it for the most part so it should work but arbs gonna cost probobly about 200 more then the detroit.

 

[Lefy]

if you want some one to to install it check out

www.jdsoffroad.com

in bedford ny about 40 minutes north of the bronx.
they can get you any locker you asked about and install it they have a full shop and do locker and gear work all the time.
they are good guys to boot
ask for chris, or jim

 

[BonesDT]

bump (thanks for the replies)

def doing it myself
price is not an issue

what are the pros and cons of the Detroit Electrac and the ARB air locker? so far i got:
Electrac: good - limited slip
ARB: good - on board air compressor, bad - open diff
what about strength and durability? performance on road and off road?

 

[yob_yeknom]

The limited slip part of the Electrac is both a pro and a con.

A limited slip can cause your rear end to want to slide downhill on a slippery, off-camber surface.

 

[94WhiteEB]

Can anyone post a link to an explanation of the types of lockers and what they do? I've searched, and can't find just an explanation of what each type does. Or could anyone tell me? I think I've gotten too many conflicting inacurate answers and I'm confused.

 

[BonesDT]

here's the basics. there are 3 different types of differentials. the conventional 'open' differential comes on most factory cars. the problem with this type is that if one wheel loses most/all traction (tire in air, on ice, etc.) the other wheel, the one with traction, will not receive any power or turn. this makes a 4wd vehicle not truly four wheel drive.

this problem is corrected with a Limited Slip Differential (LSD). upper end cars have them and others offer it as a package (~$500 an axle). there are different ways of making a LSD such as utilzing clutchs, gears, viscous fluid, etc. An LSD will automatically and immediately detect loss of traction in the one wheel and switch the power to the wheel with the grip.

then there are the lockers. lockers lock the left and right axle shafts together so that all wheels turn no matter what. you can imagine the advantages of this pure 4wd in offroad conditions like mud, snow, or rock crawling with your tires off the ground. though the locker defeats the whole purpose of the differential which is suppose to allow the outside tires to spin faster than the inside tires on turns on pavement. a locker will screech the tires on turns and is multiplied on slipery surfaces, therefore, i feel it is foolish to ever drive a full-time locker on the road or highway.

there are full time lockers, also called spools. then there are part time lockers. different operations are dirver controlled by electronic or air powered. some automatically detect when you need it and automatically engages the locker.

for more detail, go to How Stuff Works - Differentials

how does a part time locker operate when the locker in not engaged? according to this thread, most of them just operate as the normal 'open' differential. with the exception of the electrac which seems to have the luxery of being a LSD full time and then able to engage a locker on command.

i drive my explorer on the road and highway everyday, but i also want it to have the most capable ability off-road. therefore, i decided to replace my 'open' differential with a driver controlled part-time locker. i feel that the Detroit Electrac is the best choice since it also includes LSD when the locker is not engaged helping in on road/highway traction during wet weather. LSDs are what cars like the Subaru WRX STi are famous for.

yob_yeknom, i've never heard of a disadvantage of an LSD before besides a higher price tag. can you explain the downhill slide, is that the only situation where an LSD would have less traction than an 'open'? thanks for your reply.

 

[yob_yeknom]

how to explain....

If you are on a very slippery surface, having both wheels spinning can be a disadvantage. When you want to make forward traction, both wheels being able to spin is good. When you want to keep sideways traction, having a wheel not moving keeps you steady.

Lets use cutting donuts as an example. When you try to spin the car around, you have to have both rear wheels not making traction so they can start to fishtail and slip across the ground sideways. To have them not make traction they have to be spinning fast enough to break loose, hence the reason you can't cut donuts without nailing the gas. A tire that is sitting still will not slide sideways, keeps you from fishtailing, and won't let you cut a donut.

Moving on to donuts on ice or snow. Now it's really easy to get both tires to slip. With a limited slip both tires are spinning right from the get go, which makes it a lot easier to lose traction and slide sideways. You don't have to give it hardly any gas at all to spin since you're on a very slick surface, both wheels have to spin at once, and you fishtail. With an open differential, you have to give it enough gas to actually get both wheels spinning, instead of just one, to be able to fishtail. This is the reason you'll notice that it's a lot easier to have a vehicle with a limited slip fishtail through turns in icy conditions that one with an open differential.

Now to where a limited slip (and a locker also) sucks. You're on an off-camber up-hill climb in icy or very muddy conditions. Your truck already wants to slide sideways down-hill as it is, even if you're not moving. If you have a limited slip, just like above it doesn't take hardly any gas at all to get the rear end to slide sideways. The problem is you have to be able to give it enough gas to get you going forwards up the hill. You give it gas to get going up the hill, the rear end slips sideways, you slide off the side of the bank. If you had an open differential, you would be able to give it a lot more gas to get you moving forwards and still have one rear wheel not spin, giving you that sideways traction to help keep you from sliding off the bank.

Long explanation, but does it make sense now?

 

[BonesDT]

good explanation, i understand now.

i think overall performance and for my uses, the Detroit Electrac is the winner. for some reason i was really turned on to the ARB's air operation, but i feel the extra LSD feature has many more benefits and for a similiar price (im seeing right now ~$600-800) (plus Electrac gives you a new diff cover).

thank you for all your replies.

anyone know some good prices for the Detroit Electrac on the 8.8 rear?

 

[BonesDT]

i feel the part-time locker is an underrated upgrade. you can have huge mud terrain tires and a high lift, but if you get into the wrong situation, your going to get stuck. i dont, yet, do any trail offroading (i live in NYC) and especially no rock crawling, but i mess around in mud patches and snow banks when ever i come across one, and even with my goodyear mud terrains and 4wd, i get stuck all the time, and its embarrassing. every time i just stare at that one tire that has the entire weight of the truck on it on a piece of dry pavement and i ask myself, "why won't you spin like the others??"

i feel, as an amateur off-roader, that lockers and a winch are must have items. these are the things that will prevent you from getting stuck or get you out on your own. without them, you will get stuck and will need to depend on someone else.

yes, the ARB air locker is a conventional 'open' diff when the locker is not engaged. so if you dont engage the locker, then you will have the same diff as you have now (unless you have the factory LSD option)

im not familiar with rock crawling driving technique, but i see the disadvantage of having an LSD on the off-camber up hill on slippery surfaces. basically, i see it as the LSD has the forward, driving grip but not the lateral grip for slippery surfaces. but i dont see how on dry rock climbing, how the LSD would hinder you up an incline or have you roll over.

the topic has now changed to, which is better, LSD or open? this is important for me because even though i dont do hardcore offroading or rock crawling , i plan on getting into it in the near future. when i get a locker, i will be confident enough to push my explorer harder. i know i will love to rock crawl, i am always testing my flex on random rocks when i see them (and no cops are around) my ultimate plan is to build my explorer to be extremely capable off-road especially rock crawling over time, but also be somewhat reasonable and safe to drive on a highway.

my main concern is off-road performance, what are some more pros and cons of LSD and open with reference to off-roading? i guessing the LSD isnt much advantage off-road for forward momentum, because when you need to, you can just kick in the locker. but if there are no significant cons to the LSD on the off-road, it seems i would like the extra option for better on-road performance.

 

[Texplorer]

If you are getting stuck in anything here in the city it has nothing to do with your trucks capabilities but the way you are driving I think a LSD is gonna be better in every situation, on-road and off-road. Now an after market LSD is going to be a little more agressive than a OEM one and can affect on-road snow and ice driving. But for all around all year use a LSD will be better than an open diff.

You also have to remember that a winch doesnt mean that you are completely out of trouble. In matter of fact a winch can get you in more trouble than without one. If you have one you now think that you can go through anything and if you get stuck you can just winch yourself out. With that thinking you will start to put your truck through more difficult and dangerous terrain. Its like what they say about mud tires, they wont neccesarily get you through the mud, they might just get you deeper into it.

 

[94WhiteEB]

Awesome explenations, thanks everyone.

 

[general x]

My bad. When I was talking about the rolling of a rock crawler because of limited slip. I forgot that
A one wheel would have to lose traction to allow the limited slip to grab and
B who is gunna scale a wall using their limited slip when they have posi? I can see now where there is an good thing about his limited slip. I feel enlightened

 

[Mbrooks420]

my bad. when i was talking about the rolling of a rock crawler because of limited slip. i forgot thatA one wheel would have to lose traction to allow the limited slip to grab and
B who is gunna scale a wall using there limited slip when they have posi??? i can see now where there is an good thing about his limited slip i feel enlightened

Well, you aren't there yet. One wheeel doesn't have to lose traction for the clutches in the LS to drive the other tire. And a limited slip is a "posi". "positraction" is a GM term used for thier factory Limited slips, nothing else. I've wanted both a locker, and an on board air setup, so when it comes time to lay the money down, it will be an air locker for me. Another thing to consider is that a limited slip isn't always a good thing on real icy surfaces. The back end is always trying to get around when on the gas. I still love the LS, and wouldn't buy a truck without it, but takes some getting used to.