Fat cat

[Dennis F]

Fat cat - Bad seller

Bad seller. Sold me broken parts. Read on.

On 11/29/2008 FAT CAT pm'd me saying he had the parts I needed to fix my transmission. I had the flared 2/3 shift. This included a valve body, solenoids, filter, gasket, shift kit, EPC bracket and a manual. On 12/2/2008 I sent him 250 dollars for these parts. Here is the text from his ad, I do not have the pictures he had. here is the edited page as of 12/2/2008 http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230079

I had these parts just in case I ever needed them for my 99 XLT

Included in this set is: EPC solenoid, solenoid retainer, valve body plate & gaskets, valve body, tranny filter kit, shift kit and a 5R55E service manual

Everything is new except the valve body which is a reconditioned one I bought off Ebay a few years back.

$300 shipped OBO!

So I took for granted this was a rebuilt/reconditioned valve body. The defintition of reconditioned to me is that it is in it's newest condition it could be in by replacing parts, cleaning and ready to go.

I installed the valve body at a transmission shop. I talked with these guys at length about my problem and they had a 2000 Explorer in there and repaired it when I dropped mine off, so I was confident in working with them since they had another exact same problem already there and fixed it.

12/20/2008 I bring the truck in to get these parts installed. Later that day I get the call and the truck is now much worse then before. It took a solid 5 seconds to go into reverse and it would not go into drive, at all. re-installing the original valve body brought it back to the same state it was in before I started any work. This tells me that the valve body I bought was no good. So I pm'd FAT CAT about this. Later this night I sent him this,

Hey Chris,

Just wanted to touch base. I had the valve body installed.... It doesn't work.

Where it would take 2 seconds to go into gear, now it is taking over 5 seconds. I did not do the shift kit as this is the wifes truck and she does not need it to be chirping the tires (while fun, the GN does it pretty good) but my tranny guy says this thing is bad.

Was this a re-man'd valve body or just a used one?

His response to this,

Hello!

It was a used one I got off EBAY a while back. I don't know the history of it, I was going to use the solenoids if I needed them. I had all that stuff sitting just in case I needed anything for spare parts...

Chris

So now the parts are used, off ebay in unknown condition, however his for sale ad says they are reconditioned. I again pm him with this,

After some trouble shooting and re-installing my old valve body the transmission is just the way it was in the first place, just the flared 2-3 shift.

I am not sure how to trouble shoot this valve body other then by going back to the old one. Opening it up is not an option for me as I do not have a clean enough work space to do that type of work. Plus, with out the experience inside those, I don't want to mess it up.

Any chance I can get a refund for these parts? I didn't use the shift kit or the bracket. Only part I wouldn't send back would be the filter.

This response alone made me cringe,

Your best bet would be to sell what you don't need on the forum or Ebay. I don't have an explorer anymore...

Thanks!
Chris.

I don't need any of it. The part I needed is in non working condition.

This is telling me he does not want to take any responsibilty for the part he sold me. Instead he wants me to pawn it off on some other poor ******* and have thier truck not work and be out some money. Even worse is he did not care if I sold it back here and ruined any chance of building a reputation.

I then made a paypal claim saying the parts were not as described, but that was declined because the parts did arrive and paypal does not care about the actual content or description of content. Here is his response to paypal about being a private guy, I guess I am not private so it is ok to blow me off,

This person bought used auto parts listed for sale on a car enthusiast forum from a private citizen. I am not a professional seller of parts nor was this an Ebay transaction. NO guarantee or warranty was expressed or implied in this transaction. The parts were sold "AS IS" and no refund will be given. Here is a copy of the original FOR SALE ad: ---------------------- I had these parts just in case I ever needed them for my 99 XLT Included in this set is: EPC solenoid, solenoid retainer, valve body plate & gaskets, valve body, tranny filter kit, shift kit and a 5R55E service manual Everything is new except the valve body which is a reconditioned one I bought off Ebay a few years back. $300 shipped OBO! ---------------------- As you can see the ad clearly says that the valve body was bought by me off Ebay used. It was represented on Ebay and subsequently in my for sale ad as reconditioned which means: "recondition - bring into an improved condition" which could mean anything from changing the oil to scraping off old paint; again, it DOES NOT imply any guarantee. The original complaint states the parts I sold were not as described. This is FALSE as they were clearly described in my ad and delivered as such. I suspect this person is just trying to recoup money for parts he couldn't or didn't use. He sent me the following private message stating exactly that: "Any chance I can get a refund for these parts? I didn't use the shift kit or the bracket. Only part I wouldn't send back would be the filter" Again he sent me another private message saying he decided not to install some of the parts, then tried to get a refund for them: "I did not do the shift kit as this is the wifes truck and she does not need it to be chirping the tires (while fun, the GN does it pretty good)" I refuse to refund any money because its not my problem that he decided not to use them after he bought them, and again NO GUARANTEE OR WARRANTY were given and the parts were as I said. .

Yes, I did buy used parts. Chris said no warrenty was expressed or implied, very true. It also does not say there is no garuntee either. No where in this ad does he say all sales final. He DOES however say it is reconditioned. here is the definition of reconditioned from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reconditioned

1: to restore to good condition (as by replacing parts)

His defintion - "recondition - bring into an improved condition" which could mean anything from changing the oil to scraping off old paint.

So If I scrape off the paint on my truck, is it now reconditioned?

So he may have been lied to upfront when he bought this part. However, this is not my problem. he might have even known it was bad and just sold it to me, I don't know for sure.

I know by the definition I posted above it is clearly not what he wrote to paypal and myself after the sale. Actually, after he told me to sell it to the forum he has not responded to any email or PM, only the paypal claim.

Some things I find strange now is after the sale he edited his original for sale ad. He just wrote sold in the text. I have seen this before and was not worried about it till I found out it was the only for sale ad I could find from him after 15 minutes of searching where he wrote SOLD instead of just updating the last post with sold or even the title.

Here he left the content,
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227637

Here too,
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227636

What do you know, here as well
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227634

Dammit, here is another
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227069

So you can see a trend here. I know this guy is an Elite member, has helped with quite a bit of tech help but something seems a little off with him deleting just this post.

If I am in the wrong, please tell me. But I feel as if I bought new or reconditioned parts because those were Chris's words. After the sale he tells me that they are just parts he bought reconditioned and did not know the actual history is selling things in the wrong manner.

I asked for a partial refund for the valve body with all the solendois, shift kit and book. I did install the bracket, filter and gasket. I felt that since those parts were used, I asked for 150 bucks back and he could then do what he wanted with the parts.... Sell them to someone else and make it their problem. Instead he only responds to paypal and won't talk to me about it. In the end I would have paid 100 bucks for the EPC bracket, filter and gasket.

 

[Dennis F]

Thanks 410. I do not feel as if he fooled me and just unloaded parts. I never even accused him of that.

I do feel that there should be some personal responsibilty when selling a part. I mean, if I messed it up then that is on me. This was taken out of the box and put right into my wife's truck. No dicking around or opening it up.

I agree with you about buying from a known vendor... but I looked through his past posts and he seemed like a real stand up guy, sold good parts and was very smart about how he did things. Hindsight is.. well you know.

I am an Explorer newb. I spend 98% of my car time on my Evo and Grand National. I like to go fast and I do so at the track. I do no rock climbing or even want to mod the Explorer. I do however take care of my cars to the best of my ability.

I dunno, I don't feel screwed over more then just taken advantage of. Is it ok because I have 18 posts? hell no. I am a grown adult. I have a mortgage to pay like almost everyone else. I do have fun when I can and try to trust people. This is the first time I have had a situation like this where something could not be worked out or when someone just flat out ignored me.

 

[Dennis F]

Still no contact from Chris.

Can this be made a sticky?

 

[Dennis F]

If you have a contact number try calling him or mailing him a certified letter. It shows he has visited the site in the last few weeks.

I have called a couple times and no answer. He may see my name on the caller ID and just ignore it, like my pm's and email's. At this point, a certified letter is only going to require me spend more money on him and probably still prove nothing and get no response.

Chris, is a stand up guy, I know he was burned himself in selling something through the board once before. I personally have bought and sold stuff through Chris. I have only good things to say.

However this a difficult situtition. Nowbody wants to get stuck with the $250 bucks out of pocket. Sucks:thumbdwn:

Keep in mind, I was not asking for a full refund. I was basically giving him 100 bucks for a filter, gasket and a EPC bracket. I realize this is partially my fault for buying used parts.... Well, I thought they were reconditioned.

I do not know about his history selling things here any more then I can read in his posts. Look at all those posts he left the text there and just edited in a SOLD.... In this for sale ad, he deleted all of it.

So with no communication at all (except to paypal) and that ad he edited, I am starting to believe he just screwed me over and hopes I go away.

But hey, I am a newbie and maybe he thought it was ok to take advantage of me? I honestly do not know. I do know that a stand up guy would at least communicate with me, not tell me to sell bad parts to someone else on this board.

 

[HahnsB2]

I had a good buying experience with him

 

[Dennis F]

If you file a claim with paypal they will resolve it in buyers favor. That's why I always use paypal when possiable

Not always. This is direct from paypal,

Our investigation into your claim is complete. As stated in our User
Agreement, the claims process only applies to the shipment of goods. It
does not apply to complaints about the attributes or quality of goods
received. Therefore, we are unable to reverse this transaction or issue a
refund.

Anyone want to buy a reconditioned valve body:thumbdwn:

I am still waiting to hear from Chris. If he really is a stand up guy, he should respond, plead his case and prove me wrong.

 

[FAT CAT]

After reading these forums, I learned that Explorers are prone to transmission problems, so for years I collected parts in case one day, I needed to repair my own transmission.

These parts, which I bought from other members on this forum were new and unused including an EPC Solenoid which from my understanding, and I admit; I’m no transmission expert, is used to fix the 2/3 flare. Another thing I had collected a while back was a valve body for the 5r55e transmission that I bought used off Ebay for $40.00

After I sold my Explorer, I started to sell of the extra parts I had acquired. I rounded up all the transmission stuff and listed it for sale on the form with the following ad:

<<Originally Posted by FAT CAT
I had these parts just in case I ever needed them for my 99 XLT

Included in this set is: EPC solenoid, solenoid retainer, valve body plate & gaskets, valve body, tranny filter kit, shift kit and a 5R55E service manual

Everything is new except the valve body which is a reconditioned one I bought off Ebay a few years back.

$300 shipped OBO!>>

In the ad I listed to the best of my knowledge, everything that was new and unused, except for the valve body. I took care to mention that the valve body was used one that was presented to me as reconditioned when I bought it…pay attention to that word reconditioned as it will come up again later…I never asked what was involved in reconditioning the thing when I bought it and as it turns out neither did you.

After I shipped the parts to you, they were out of my hands and control. This is the hard part about buying and selling to people over the internet, you don’t know about me and I don’t know about you… It’s easy to say I’m responsible, but what about you? Maybe you dropped the valve body when you opened it and it broke? Maybe you tried to install it and messed it up? Maybe the shop you took it to installed wrong and didn’t tell you? Maybe the guy I bought it from misrepresented it or only reconditioned 1 part of it and another part down the line, failed...See? Lots of maybe’s there and all of them plausible.

To be honest with you, if you had talked just about the valve body, we could have probably reached an agreement and had this settled a long time ago. Where things went bad was your insistence on returning brand new parts to me that you decided not to use. The valve body was just thrown in the package, what I thought was the important stuff was the hundreds of dollars worth of new parts including EPC solenoid; which I believed you needed to fix your transmission problem.

What follows is a condensed (but still incredibly long) version of what happened:

In PM to me you said:

“Any chance I can get a refund for these parts? I didn't use the shift kit or the bracket. Only part I wouldn't send back would be the filter.”

I balked at that because I couldn’t understand why you thought you were entitled to return whatever parts you decided you didn’t need after you bought them from a private party off the internet…you’ll notice I used the word PARTS (plural) not part, that will come up again later too.

In another PM you again requested to return parts, you said

“I did not do the shift kit as this is the wifes truck and she does not need it to be chirping the tires (while fun, the GN does it pretty good)”

Again, you didn't get the answer you wanted. You then filed a complaint to PayPal trying to get a refund of your money. I filed a rebuttal and PayPal denied your claim.

<<1/4/2009 PP-611-539-427 Not as described Claim Dennis Fernald $200.00 USD >>
Here is the full text of your complaint:

<< • 1/4/2009 07:48 PST - PayPal: Dennis Fernald requested a $150.00 USD refund.

• 1/4/2009 07:48 PST - Buyer: The valve body with all the solenoids are defective. I had a transmission shop install it and it did not work. Rebuilding my stock one worked. After our emails you said it was purchased used of EBAY, while your original for sale ad said everything was new or refurbished. I also have the original for sale ad from the administration @ Explorer forums. I hate doing this as I do not feel like i was screwed over, but I do have parts that are in non working order. I am not asking for a full refund as some of the parts were used, like the filter and bracket. I did not use the valve body, solenoids, shift kit or the book. I would like a partial refund of 150 bucks, I think that is fair.>>


In the above complaint you do two things I want you to pay close attention to:

First, read this last part of your claim:

“I am not asking for a full refund as some of the parts were used, like the filter and bracket. I did not use the valve body, solenoids, shift kit or the book. I would like a partial refund of 150 bucks, I think that is fair”

This is now the third time you have requested to return these new parts which I frankly find hard to believe, but what’s worse is out of a $200.00 transaction you are asking for a refund of $150! Excuse me, but who are you to just decide it’s fair to return these selected parts and arbitrarily assign a value of $150 to just the stuff you don’t want and one part you allege was defective?

I’ve bought and sold a lot of parts on various forums over the years and never have I come back later & say, “Hey, I didn’t end up using those brake pads (or whatever), Can I have my money back? That’s why in my rebuttal, I said that I’m a private citizen not a store or a parts seller. This is not KMART where you can just return something because you decide not to use it or don’t like the color. I don’t know why you had such a hard time understanding that statement or my position on it???

Second; you misrepresent my original ad that was posted on ExplorerForum here is where you start playing with semantics, which is why I made sure to clarify my ad and the exact words used. You falsely say in your PayPal complaint that I represented the items as follows;

“ your original for sale ad said everything was new or refurbished”

I did NOT use the word refurbished in the ad, I did say the majority of the parts were new and that is the truth. I also stated that ONE part (the valve body) was reconditioned and that’s the truth to the best of my knowledge. I point this out, like I said I would earlier, because words are important, words convey meaning.

There is a reason that machine shops don’t use the word reconditioned to describe a rebuilt engine…it’s because reconditioned doesn’t mean rebuilt. Just like when electronic stores say something is refurbished, they don’t say reconditioned. Or factories when the remanufacture something, it becomes remanufactured not reconditioned.

To show you how ambiguous and weightless the word reconditioned is, you yourself wouldn’t use it in your own PM to me when you tried (after you had bought the part) to clarify the origin of the part:

“Was this a re-man'd valve body or just a used one?”

See? You use re-man’d, short for remanufactured. Why didn’t you use reconditioned? Because reconditioned doesn’t mean remanufactured… Like I pointed out in my PayPay rebuttal, reconditioned can mean different things to different people and doesn’t imply on it’s own, that the part is guaranteed or warranted. You can recondition a car buy painting it and putting a new set of tires on it right? That doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed you can drive it cross country without an engine failure or something. Again, I didn’t ask what reconditioned meant when I bought the thing and you didn’t ask what it meant when you bought it. In your first post in this thread you say;

“So I took for granted this was a rebuilt/reconditioned valve body. The definition of reconditioned to me is that it is in it's newest condition it could be in by replacing parts, cleaning and ready to go.”

You took for granted that you and I and even the original guy that I bought it off Ebay from, all share the same definition of reconditioned. If I went to a motor shop to replace my blown engine, and they said “we have this reconditioned one here” I’d ask what they mean by reconditioned because to me it’s different than rebuilt. Here you say in you 1st. post in this thread:

“After the sale he tells me that they are just parts he bought reconditioned”

That’s not quite the truth is it? Look again at my original ad and you’ll see the word reconditioned right in there, I didn’t spring it on you later… I’m sorry to spend so much time on this but I need to clearly explain the situation to you. You bought a used part that even if it WAS listed as rebuilt, re manufactured, refurbished, or reconditioned, came with no warranty or guarantee that it will work in your application even if it was correctly installed etc…etc…

Well, let’s move on because all of the above must not have sat well with you. In your next PM to me, the one where you call me an ASS remember? (And you wonder why our communication has broke down) You say to me (now for the 4th time!):

“Give me your address and I will send back everything”

Again you ask to return those new parts! You’re like a demented Energizer Bunny; you just keep going and going… You just don’t seem to be able to grasp the reality that I’m not taking them back. You now own these parts, do with them what you will. All of them are new and able to be sold with the exception of ONE PART (the valve body) that should have been your focus all along.

And here is where the gloves come off my friend, after all this you come in here and lie and slander me (look that up in your dictionary) and basically do all you can to make yourself look like the little guy that is getting taken advantage of. You falsely say that I told you to sell the valve body to someone else on the forum. You word it like I said “just pawn it off on someone else” You sir are a liar, show me where I told you to do that! You wrote:

“Any chance I can get a refund for these parts? I didn't use the shift kit or the bracket.”

You said parts, (plural) parts! That’s why I pointed it out earlier…Then you listed those parts; "shift kit and bracket”
Those parts are what I was referring to when I said you should sell them if you don’t need them, they are new parts and you just couldn’t comprehend that I wasn’t taking them back and giving you your money back for them… I never said to pawn a non working part off on anybody, those are your words and they are lies that do damage to me among my peers on this forum.

You also go on to say that I won’t communicate with you about this. What about the PM I sent on 12-01-2008 01:37 PM? or this one 12-01-2008 02:16 PM or 12-02-2008 09:36 AM or 12-02-2008 12:20 PM or 12-05-2008 09:14 PM or 12-18-2008 06:04 PM or 12-23-2008 05:30 PM?

The real problem with our communication is that you aren’t hearing what you want to hear so you just keep spinning things round and round and expect me to go back and forth with you. You are saying one thing and doing another. In your response to 410FORTUNE on this thread you say:

“Thanks 410. I do not feel as if he fooled me and just unloaded parts. I never even accused him of that.”

BS! Do you even read your own posts? That is exactly what you are doing in the first post of this thread when you say:

“This is telling me he does not want to take any responsibility for the part he sold me. Instead he wants me to pawn it off on some other poor ******* and have their truck not work and be out some money. Even worse is he did not care if I sold it back here and ruined any chance of building a reputation”

Or what about your PM to me on where you say:

“You took advantage of me with this sale and now you are doing the same with paypal.”

And later in the thread this:

“I am starting to believe he just screwed me over and hopes I go away”

Oh, I’m sorry about the last one because I really shouldn’t jump around your posts to find sound bites to prove my point…but wait! You don’t seem to have a problem with it, in fact you’re like a creepy e-stalker going back through my old posts to devise some kind of conspiracy theory about my for sale posts. WTF are you going on about in your 1st.post in this thread? Are you really trying to make me out to be some kind of Dr. Evil with a mad plan? Just because what? I found it to be simpler to just paste over the ad with “SOLD!” in the threads where no one has replied, rather than scrolling down and adding a post and bumping the whole thread like I used to do… I really don’t know what to say to that one…

But FINALLY I’m spent! I’m not going to go back and forth with you about this. You had your say and I’ve had mine. Because I don’t want to be a part of a crap festival on this forum I’m not going to post anything more on this issue. I suggest you send a message to RICK the admin. on this forum asking him to review this thread, because It’s his forum and because I trust his judgment and respect his opinion; if he sends me a PM saying I should return some money to you I will. If he doesn't want to get involved, then you are on your own...

Oh, in your last post in this thread, you ask if anybody wants to buy a reconditioned valve body... Actually, I do; I'll give you $40.00 for it shipped to 92173

 

[Dennis F]

Thanks for replying.

After reading these forums, I learned that Explorers are prone to transmission problems, so for years I collected parts in case one day, I needed to repair my own transmission.

These parts, which I bought from other members on this forum were new and unused including an EPC Solenoid which from my understanding, and I admit; I’m no transmission expert, is used to fix the 2/3 flare. Another thing I had collected a while back was a valve body for the 5r55e transmission that I bought used off Ebay for $40.00

So you listed it as reconditioned, but really had no idea what the condition was? Is it possible that your ad was misrepresented?

After I sold my Explorer, I started to sell of the extra parts I had acquired. I rounded up all the transmission stuff and listed it for sale on the form with the following ad:

<<Originally Posted by FAT CAT
I had these parts just in case I ever needed them for my 99 XLT

Included in this set is: EPC solenoid, solenoid retainer, valve body plate & gaskets, valve body, tranny filter kit, shift kit and a 5R55E service manual

Everything is new except the valve body which is a reconditioned one I bought off Ebay a few years back.

$300 shipped OBO!>>

Yup, I read the ad the first time and several times after that. I told you in the original PM that I did not need all these parts, I only wanted the valve body. Turns out the only part I needed was bad.

In the ad I listed to the best of my knowledge, everything that was new and unused, except for the valve body. I took care to mention that the valve body was used one that was presented to me as reconditioned when I bought it…pay attention to that word reconditioned as it will come up again later…I never asked what was involved in reconditioning the thing when I bought it and as it turns out neither did you.

What does reconditioned mean again? Oh yes, to wipe oil off or scrape paint.

After I shipped the parts to you, they were out of my hands and control. This is the hard part about buying and selling to people over the internet, you don’t know about me and I don’t know about you… It’s easy to say I’m responsible, but what about you? Maybe you dropped the valve body when you opened it and it broke? Maybe you tried to install it and messed it up? Maybe the shop you took it to installed wrong and didn’t tell you? Maybe the guy I bought it from misrepresented it or only reconditioned 1 part of it and another part down the line, failed...See? Lots of maybe’s there and all of them plausible.

Well, I had these parts installed by a shop, Turnpike Transmission. They installed your valve body, car did not move forward and would take 5 seconds to go into reverse. I can certainly get a letter or something from them explaining exactly what happened. Either way, what I needed from you did not work.

To be honest with you, if you had talked just about the valve body, we could have probably reached an agreement and had this settled a long time ago. Where things went bad was your insistence on returning brand new parts to me that you decided not to use. The valve body was just thrown in the package, what I thought was the important stuff was the hundreds of dollars worth of new parts including EPC solenoid; which I believed you needed to fix your transmission problem.

Of course, because the valve body is only worth 40 bucks to you, where as a rebuilt/reconditioned valve body from a vendor goes for over 200. I thought that was what I was paying for. RECONDITIONED

What follows is a condensed (but still incredibly long) version of what happened:

In PM to me you said:

“Any chance I can get a refund for these parts? I didn't use the shift kit or the bracket. Only part I wouldn't send back would be the filter.”

I balked at that because I couldn’t understand why you thought you were entitled to return whatever parts you decided you didn’t need after you bought them from a private party off the internet…you’ll notice I used the word PARTS (plural) not part, that will come up again later too.

It has nothing to do with parts I didn't use. It has to do with the part I needed, that you sold to me which did not work

In another PM you again requested to return parts, you said

“I did not do the shift kit as this is the wifes truck and she does not need it to be chirping the tires (while fun, the GN does it pretty good)”

Again, I don't need it. Was not going to use it and said so in my original PM. Unfortunatly I already deleted it to make space for others.

Again, you didn't get the answer you wanted. You then filed a complaint to PayPal trying to get a refund of your money. I filed a rebuttal and PayPal denied your claim.

<<1/4/2009 PP-611-539-427 Not as described Claim Dennis Fernald $200.00 USD >>
Here is the full text of your complaint:

<< • 1/4/2009 07:48 PST - PayPal: Dennis Fernald requested a $150.00 USD refund.

• 1/4/2009 07:48 PST - Buyer: The valve body with all the solenoids are defective. I had a transmission shop install it and it did not work. Rebuilding my stock one worked. After our emails you said it was purchased used of EBAY, while your original for sale ad said everything was new or refurbished. I also have the original for sale ad from the administration @ Explorer forums. I hate doing this as I do not feel like i was screwed over, but I do have parts that are in non working order. I am not asking for a full refund as some of the parts were used, like the filter and bracket. I did not use the valve body, solenoids, shift kit or the book. I would like a partial refund of 150 bucks, I think that is fair.>>


In the above complaint you do two things I want you to pay close attention to:

First, read this last part of your claim:

“I am not asking for a full refund as some of the parts were used, like the filter and bracket. I did not use the valve body, solenoids, shift kit or the book. I would like a partial refund of 150 bucks, I think that is fair”

Paypal declined my claim because they do not care about the content of the sale, only that the content was delivered.

This is now the third time you have requested to return these new parts which I frankly find hard to believe, but what’s worse is out of a $200.00 transaction you are asking for a refund of $150! Excuse me, but who are you to just decide it’s fair to return these selected parts and arbitrarily assign a value of $150 to just the stuff you don’t want and one part you allege was defective?

3rd time because I feel as if a wrong was committed. I am starting to think you screwed me over because up until this point, you have been non responsive for well over a week. Several PM's and emails going unanswered in looking more and more like you do not care nor stand behind what you sell.

I did 1 thing wrong, trusted you would sell me good parts and stand behind them. Obviously your word is not as strong as your for sale ad.

I’ve bought and sold a lot of parts on various forums over the years and never have I come back later & say, “Hey, I didn’t end up using those brake pads (or whatever), Can I have my money back? That’s why in my rebuttal, I said that I’m a private citizen not a store or a parts seller. This is not KMART where you can just return something because you decide not to use it or don’t like the color. I don’t know why you had such a hard time understanding that statement or my position on it???

As have I. I have been around forums for the better part of 9 years buying and selling. This is the first time I have been in a situation like this because I do homework before I buy something. I looked at all your other for sale ads. You can not deny that you did make it seem a little fishy after the sale that you deleted all your ad. Why was it only this one?

Second; you misrepresent my original ad that was posted on ExplorerForum here is where you start playing with semantics, which is why I made sure to clarify my ad and the exact words used. You falsely say in your PayPal complaint that I represented the items as follows;

“ your original for sale ad said everything was new or refurbished”

I did NOT use the word refurbished in the ad, I did say the majority of the parts were new and that is the truth. I also stated that ONE part (the valve body) was reconditioned and that’s the truth to the best of my knowledge. I point this out, like I said I would earlier, because words are important, words convey meaning.

Reconditioned is to bring back to like new state, not used in unknown condition. I do not know why you do not understand this.

Just because it is to the best of your knowledge does not mean it to be true. It is infact not reconditioned, but used in a non usable condition.

There is a reason that machine shops don’t use the word reconditioned to describe a rebuilt engine…it’s because reconditioned doesn’t mean rebuilt. Just like when electronic stores say something is refurbished, they don’t say reconditioned. Or factories when the remanufacture something, it becomes remanufactured not reconditioned.

At this point, stop trying to compare yourself to a shop or a manufacturer. You yourself said that you are a private citizen so it is not fair to continue to use words in another companies mouth.

To show you how ambiguous and weightless the word reconditioned is, you yourself wouldn’t use it in your own PM to me when you tried (after you had bought the part) to clarify the origin of the part:

“Was this a re-man'd valve body or just a used one?”

See? You use re-man’d, short for remanufactured. Why didn’t you use reconditioned? Because reconditioned doesn’t mean remanufactured… Like I pointed out in my PayPay rebuttal, reconditioned can mean different things to different people and doesn’t imply on it’s own, that the part is guaranteed or warranted. You can recondition a car buy painting it and putting a new set of tires on it right? That doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed you can drive it cross country without an engine failure or something. Again, I didn’t ask what reconditioned meant when I bought the thing and you didn’t ask what it meant when you bought it. In your first post in this thread you say;

“So I took for granted this was a rebuilt/reconditioned valve body. The definition of reconditioned to me is that it is in it's newest condition it could be in by replacing parts, cleaning and ready to go.”

Honestly, because rema'd was easier to type. In this valve body case, what is the difference between a reconditioned or refurbished unit going to be?

You took for granted that you and I and even the original guy that I bought it off Ebay from, all share the same definition of reconditioned. If I went to a motor shop to replace my blown engine, and they said “we have this reconditioned one here” I’d ask what they mean by reconditioned because to me it’s different than rebuilt. Here you say in you 1st. post in this thread:

“After the sale he tells me that they are just parts he bought reconditioned”

What I took for granted was I could trust a long standing member to know what he is selling.

That’s not quite the truth is it? Look again at my original ad and you’ll see the word reconditioned right in there, I didn’t spring it on you later… I’m sorry to spend so much time on this but I need to clearly explain the situation to you. You bought a used part that even if it WAS listed as rebuilt, re manufactured, refurbished, or reconditioned, came with no warranty or guarantee that it will work in your application even if it was correctly installed etc…etc…

What is a reconditioned valve body? Please, enlighten me with your definition. Is it to wipe oil off?

Well, let’s move on because all of the above must not have sat well with you. In your next PM to me, the one where you call me an ASS remember? (And you wonder why our communication has broke down) You say to me (now for the 4th time!):

“Give me your address and I will send back everything”

Again you ask to return those new parts! You’re like a demented Energizer Bunny; you just keep going and going… You just don’t seem to be able to grasp the reality that I’m not taking them back. You now own these parts, do with them what you will. All of them are new and able to be sold with the exception of ONE PART (the valve body) that should have been your focus all along.

I am persistent and have time on my hands. I did indeed call you an ass. You also said to sell whatever I do not need. Well, I do not need a broken valve body. So, since this has all been about semantics and word playing, you would like for me to sell your broken parts to some one else on this forum.

And here is where the gloves come off my friend, after all this you come in here and lie and slander me (look that up in your dictionary) and basically do all you can to make yourself look like the little guy that is getting taken advantage of. You falsely say that I told you to sell the valve body to someone else on the forum. You word it like I said “just pawn it off on someone else” You sir are a liar, show me where I told you to do that! You wrote:

“Any chance I can get a refund for these parts? I didn't use the shift kit or the bracket.”

It is quoted at the top of this page in the first post. I am the little guy here, just joined a year ago, don't post much but when I needed something you were right there to hand it to me.

I am not falsifying anything. I copied your words exactly as they were presented to me. Sell what I don't need on the forums or on ebay.... I don't need this valve body.

You said parts, (plural) parts! That’s why I pointed it out earlier…Then you listed those parts; "shift kit and bracket”
Those parts are what I was referring to when I said you should sell them if you don’t need them, they are new parts and you just couldn’t comprehend that I wasn’t taking them back and giving you your money back for them… I never said to pawn a non working part off on anybody, those are your words and they are lies that do damage to me among my peers on this forum.

Of course your going to say that now. So what should I do with this reconditioned valve body? This is not lying, this is all about buying parts described as working condition. That is the way the whole for sale ad was written. had I known it was in unknown condition, I would have skipped passed your parts. However, looking at your other parts sold by you, you seemed to always sell quality parts and had good transactions.

Sorry I trusted you.

You also go on to say that I won’t communicate with you about this. What about the PM I sent on 12-01-2008 01:37 PM? or this one 12-01-2008 02:16 PM or 12-02-2008 09:36 AM or 12-02-2008 12:20 PM or 12-05-2008 09:14 PM or 12-18-2008 06:04 PM or 12-23-2008 05:30 PM?

The real problem with our communication is that you aren’t hearing what you want to hear so you just keep spinning things round and round and expect me to go back and forth with you. You are saying one thing and doing another. In your response to 410FORTUNE on this thread you say:

“Thanks 410. I do not feel as if he fooled me and just unloaded parts. I never even accused him of that.”

BS! Do you even read your own posts? That is exactly what you are doing in the first post of this thread when you say:

“This is telling me he does not want to take any responsibility for the part he sold me. Instead he wants me to pawn it off on some other poor ******* and have their truck not work and be out some money. Even worse is he did not care if I sold it back here and ruined any chance of building a reputation”

Or what about your PM to me on where you say:

“You took advantage of me with this sale and now you are doing the same with paypal.”

And later in the thread this:

“I am starting to believe he just screwed me over and hopes I go away”

Oh, I’m sorry about the last one because I really shouldn’t jump around your posts to find sound bites to prove my point…but wait! You don’t seem to have a problem with it, in fact you’re like a creepy e-stalker going back through my old posts to devise some kind of conspiracy theory about my for sale posts. WTF are you going on about in your 1st.post in this thread? Are you really trying to make me out to be some kind of Dr. Evil with a mad plan? Just because what? I found it to be simpler to just paste over the ad with “SOLD!” in the threads where no one has replied, rather than scrolling down and adding a post and bumping the whole thread like I used to do… I really don’t know what to say to that one…

I am not trying to make you look like Dr Evil. I am thorough in my research into buying parts, trusting people and when I decided to make this thread, I wanted to put up as much content I could.

However, the first few dates you posted for responding to me are when we were making the sale, about shipping and paypal payment sent. So please, lets only talk about you not responding to me after the sale here. You responded 2 times after the sale. Once to tell me it was some part you bought off ebay and the next time was to tell me to sell it to someone else.

But FINALLY I’m spent! I’m not going to go back and forth with you about this. You had your say and I’ve had mine. Because I don’t want to be a part of a crap festival on this forum I’m not going to post anything more on this issue. I suggest you send a message to RICK the admin. on this forum asking him to review this thread, because It’s his forum and because I trust his judgment and respect his opinion; if he sends me a PM saying I should return some money to you I will. If he doesn't want to get involved, then you are on your own...

Oh, in your last post in this thread, you ask if anybody wants to buy a reconditioned valve body... Actually, I do; I'll give you $40.00 for it shipped to 92173

Yes, your spent. Funny, I am the one that spent the money here.

Lets bring up another point here. You say that all sales are final, where in your for sale ad does it say this? I did not read it anywhere, maybe I missed it? I can't find all sales final, no written guarantee is imposed or implied.

I will be adding to this more later. Seeing how this has turned into a break down of the english language and all. I can better reply with some more time.

I will sell it for 40 bucks, although shipping is 110.00

 

[Turdle]

Something else, if you are not DIRECTLY involved in a transaction (Buyer or Seller) DO NOT POST in their transaction feedback thread. You're post will get deleted. If I have to keep deleting your posts you'll be wasting my time.

And for those of you that think this is a NEW RULE, its not. I just forgot to post it up when it was last discussed by management. So my mistake on that one, but you can see it enforced here: http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57225 that was on 8-30-02, so its far from new...

I don't catch everyone that dosen't follow this rule, but if I do I rectify it...

 

[Dennis F]

He bought something used off ebay and didn't use it. He sold it thinking it was fine, just like he bought it thinking it was fine. Do you think he installed it to test it and said, "ok sweet it works, I'll take it back off and save it for later?" ..."

I do not know what he did with it. I do know for a fact it is in non working condition. It is being sold as reconditioned, not in an unknown state. Nowhere does it say it did not work. While it was sold as used, it was also sold as reconditioned.

You are wrong... It said it was a used part in the original post

I am not wrong, it also said reconditioned. I never doubted it was used. I would have expected to pay much much more then that for a brand new unit.
Can Chris tell me what is reconditioned on it?

You said you do "thorough research" before buying parts on the internet, but then you say:

That's not good research. Again, in the original post, he bought something used off ebay and never used it. If you've been buying stuff over the internet for 9 years, I would imagine you thought of this (somewhere in the back of your head using your internet purchasing experience) as maybe being a red flag?

I see we can bring sarcasim into this now?

What i thought was a good standing member would only sell known good parts as advertised and not sell unknown parts to lead me to believe it was in proper working order. if you read all of my post you would have also quoted me saying I went back through his other for sale ads and saw he was a good seller and not some 18 year old kid trying to off load parts. His parts have been of quality nature.

It doesn't matter that Chris is a very stand up guy in this situation. He could be the biggest ####### in the world and it wouldn't change the fact that he stated the part was used and a few years old.

I'm on Chris's side, but you'll probably think it's because I'm a long standing member being his mini me and you're just "an Explorer newb..."

If he is that much of a stand up guy, why did he blow me off and tell me to sell what I don't need? I don't need broken junk as I am sure others on here do not need broken junk. Stand up guys take care of there business, not unload toothers.

Which brings up another point, is it ok to sell unknown condition of parts with no personal responsibilty on this board? If you look through some of the other bad guy threads, most have had some type of resolution.

I could care less if your his mini me or life partner. What I do care about is a resolution to someone selling bad parts and not taking responsibilty for said parts. This is not ebay, this is a forum with a bunch of car/truck guys here. This place should be held to a much higher standard. On the other boards I am on, I would have expected guys to be stand up and come to an agreement.

Chris, had I known that you did not know the quality or state this valve body was in, I would have never bought it from you. Infact, I would have not even replied to your PM about it. It so happens there was a valve body already in the transmission. Worst case scenerio was to fix that one and deal with the downtime. I was buying your for the least amount of downtime as this is my wife's truck, the one she drives my 5 year old daughter around in. Last thing I would ever want is to put her in a spot with unknown quality parts that could leave her in any undesirable situation.

Turns out I wasted time and money trusting you and your parts. I had wasted money buying your parts and the labor costs to do the R & R, then just to recondition the one that was already in there.

WTF Is it really OK to sell unknown condition of parts here?

Dennis F has the right to post his experience, and FAT CAT has the option of responding. This has turned into a feeding frenzy on Dennis F, and it's rather sad.

I don't know who posted that, but thank you.

 

[FAT CAT]

Well, I said I wasn't going to post here again but here I am...I guess I really do misrepresent things

I appreciate the level headed and honest reply's from everyone here. I do you think that you should let it go as this guy isn’t the least bit interested in being honest and finding to a reasonable solution. He just wants to somehow prove he's right and win the argument, and as I said in my last post, he just goes round and round and back and forth over the same ground.

Well I just received an email that for me at least, puts this matter to bed once and for all.

In an earlier post Dennis said that PayPal rejected his claim because they are only concerned with the shipping and delivery of the items in question. That is another untruth...In fact PayPal had an open and ongoing investigation regarding his claim.

This email ruling in my favor should hopefully convince him that he was in the wrong, but somehow I doubt it

Dear Christopher Glass,

PayPal has concluded the investigation of the following claim:


Buyer's Name: Dennis Fernald
Buyer's Email: DennisFernald@gmail.com
Buyer's Transaction ID: 3BR93087V11106005

Transaction Date: Dec 2, 2008
Transaction Amount: -$200.00 USD
Your Transaction ID: 7H787774MC662321K
Case Number: PP-611-539-427

Refund Amount: $150.00 USD



Based on PayPal's definition of significantly not-as-described, this claim
does not qualify for a refund for the following reason:

We found the seller to have accurately represented the item(s) in question.

Please review the User Agreement for more information. This case is
considered closed.

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=p/gen/ua/ua-outside

There it is right there! Game over! PayPal found that the seller (ME) had accurately represented the item in question and they denied Dennis' claim and closed the case.

As Steve said, and most anyone who has had dealings with them knows, PayPal is famous for defending the BUYERS rights because the buyer’s money makes the world go round...For them to rule in the sellers favor here really shows the truth about this situation.


So that's it for me...This really will be my last post on the subject. In fact I think I'm well within my rights to ask that this thread be closed.

Thank you.

Chris

 

[Dennis F]

Well, I said I wasn't going to post here again but here I am...I guess I really do misrepresent things

I appreciate the level headed and honest reply's from everyone here. I do you think that you should let it go as this guy isn’t the least bit interested in being honest and finding to a reasonable solution. He just wants to somehow prove he's right and win the argument, and as I said in my last post, he just goes round and round and back and forth over the same ground.

Show me where I am not honest? Show one post where I am not honest.

This is taken right from the user policy Chris. It is not because you are an upstanding person.

Our investigation into your claim is complete. As stated in our User
Agreement, the claims process only applies to the shipment of goods. It
does not apply to complaints about the attributes or quality of goods
received. Therefore, we are unable to reverse this transaction or issue a
refund.

Well I just received an email that for me at least, puts this matter to bed once and for all.

Good for you. Your the one playing on words here. My quote from paypal describes this. Read on.

In an earlier post Dennis said that PayPal rejected his claim because they are only concerned with the shipping and delivery of the items in question. That is another untruth...In fact PayPal had an open and ongoing investigation regarding his claim.

Again, this is in the user policy. How is that not the truth? it is in the freakin USER POLICY!!!!!!! Not because some magic fairy decided you were the guy in the right here.

This email ruling in my favor should hopefully convince him that he was in the wrong, but somehow I doubt it

Again, your hiding behind bullshit policy. Read the policy for yourself.

Dear Christopher Glass,

PayPal has concluded the investigation of the following claim:


Buyer's Name: Dennis Fernald
Buyer's Email: DennisFernald@gmail.com
Buyer's Transaction ID: 3BR93087V11106005

Transaction Date: Dec 2, 2008
Transaction Amount: -$200.00 USD
Your Transaction ID: 7H787774MC662321K
Case Number: PP-611-539-427

Refund Amount: $150.00 USD



Based on PayPal's definition of significantly not-as-described, this claim
does not qualify for a refund for the following reason:

We found the seller to have accurately represented the item(s) in question.

Please review the User Agreement for more information. This case is
considered closed.

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=p/gen/ua/ua-outside

There it is right there! Game over! PayPal found that the seller (ME) had accurately represented the item in question and they denied Dennis' claim and closed the case. .

Chris, you may think you accuratly explained the condition, but it does not work. How is this accurate? Please tell me how it is reconditioned. Please tell me how this POS is in reconditioned state?

As Steve said, and most anyone who has had dealings with them knows, PayPal is famous for defending the BUYERS rights because the buyer’s money makes the world go round...For them to rule in the sellers favor here really shows the truth about this situation.


So that's it for me...This really will be my last post on the subject. In fact I think I'm well within my rights to ask that this thread be closed.

Thank you.

Chris

Good for you sir. I hope you sleep better tonight. Thank you for being such a nice guy and standing behind what you sell. Next time I am in Cali, I will be sure to stop by and say hi to your upstanding character.

Dude... it's not ok to sell bad parts here.

Apperently it is, as long as I say "reconditioned". Chris sold a bad part to me. He said it was reconditioned and it does not work, how is that a good part?

Pop quiz:
Subject - Comprehension Skills

Read this real slow and take in every word. Even the big one.

He bought it reconditioned from ebay a few years ago. How is it his fault it's not working correctly?.

It is not his fault it does not work, but it should be on him somewhat that he sold a non functioning part. Hence why I asked for a partial refund.

I'm not biased at all. I would feel the same way if it wasn't Chris. Whether it was Chris, your mother or The Pope, you bought used parts from a seller over the internet. That's all that needs to be said. *Please see my bolded text above?.

Are you sure about that? I have gotten a few pm's disagreeing with you. As well as a few others in here who do not flat out agree with you. This is from the administration of this board as well. No where did I try to place all the blame on him, it is both of our faults.

Absolutely. IMO It would be the buyer's fault for buying used parts expecting them to be in "like new" condition regardless if it says "reconditioned, remanufactured" or "rebuilt."

Did you actually just say that? So that puts no responsibility on the seller to sell good parts. I am floored by that statement. It would make sense that you guys are friends.

I hope to also do business with you soon. I have some reconditioned items here I need to sell. As long as I just say reconditioned I do not have to take any responsibilty.

You can be done with me. There is no reason for this thread to be closed. Someone sold bad parts on a forum, a forum that is supposed to be a tighter group of guys then ebay. This was my transaction. It should be here, just like paypal is going to keep a note on his account of this.

I am glad you could be a gutless ******* who can sell things to anyone and not care how they work after the sale. I paid top dollar for parts that would have cost the same if I bought them from a vendor. That right there is a sign that these parts should be in working order or he was just trying to screw me over. He stated he paid 40 bucks for the valve body. This was not known at the time of sale, it was listed with a price tag of a real reconditioned unit.

So now I can sell parts labeled as new, reconditioned or refurbed but not actually know the real situation. If someone buys them it is on the buyer according to your logic.

Thanks a lot Chris. Thank you for being an ass. If you were a real man you would stand up and do the right thing. This is the generation we live in now. People are not bound by their word any longer. Given your age I thought you would have been a nice guy and stand behind what you sold, guess not.

This is absolutly not over.

 

[Heath]

Quick reminder if you're not a buyer or seller w/Fat Cat DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD

 

[FAT CAT]

Well, third times the charm! I said I wasn't going to post in here anymore, then I said it again...I really mean it this time

Turns out I was wrong all along. Like the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it...

During my dispute with Dennis, I decided to go back and research the threads about these valve bodies that were for sale on Ebay. I admit I was looking for more ammo to prove my point. Then I found the original email from Ebay about winning the $40.00 valve body. The listing was no longer active so I couldn't read what was done to recondition the valve body. I emailed the seller to try to find out what was done.

I just heard back from him that the $40.00 ones were not reconditioned, just used, but he also had reconditioned ones for sale at the same time...

So, seems I was wrong to list the thing as reconditioned in the first place. Even though I didn't place much value on the word reconditioned, and I still don't place much value on the part itself as part of the whole package; since I was such a stickler on semantics and language in my dispute with Dennis I must admit I had no right to list the thing as reconditioned in the first place.

This is now the 2nd time in my life that I've been wrong and let me tell ya', it doesn't get any easier I have sent a full refund to Dennis and would like to apologize to him and this forum for so vigorously defending my erroneous position.

Chris