Help!? - Wrong 5 spd. tranny lubricant; estimated life in tranny?

[julia]

Any help greatly appreciated! (I'm new, so I hope I am using this site right )

I recently discovered that the Ford dealership put GEAR OIL instead of the specified mercon ATF into my manual transmission, at 97,000 miles (when I took it to them for service). Now, at 182K, I drained it (servicing it) and discovered the incorrect lubricant (gear oil), as well as several chunks of metal, that look like they could be parts of a bearing case. The tranny had no noticable problems, was shifting fine, no noise, nothing ... but I immediately stopped driving to avoid possible further damage, since the metal peices are not good news, as something has obviously worn and broken apart.

I am now negotiating with the dealership about their responsibility in repairing my transmission. They admit they put the wrong oil in, and are willing to cover PART of the repairs ... they reason that damage would have occured within 10,000 miles had it been the lubricant's fault -- and that I drove 87,000 miles without a problem, and that at 182K it is near the end of the transmission 's life anyway.

My feeling is that perhaps I would have NO transmission problem had the right lubricant been put in, and maybe no more problems for another 70K or longer.

If anyone knows this: what life might one expect out of a 5 spd. transmission if it is properly maintained, and driven correctly and modestly? (and clutch replaced) I have heard 250K, and even 300 K is possible.

What effect would putting gear oil have on my transmission, after this many miles? Could it be responsible for the damage?

Any ideas on what is fair here, both to me and them? Time is of the essence, as my (only) car is still sitting in their shop, waiting to be fixed! (hasn't been opened up yet.)

thank you!!!

 

[Stephen]

Hi Julia, welcome to the site, hope you enjoy it!

As for the manual transmission's expected life, from what I've seen around here the manual is very reliable and practically lasts as long as the engine. We have Explorer owners here with 300-400,000 miles on their trucks and they have the original engine. The automatic transmission in the Explorer is a trouble spot, but I'd expect a manual with regular maintenance and a light hand to last well beyond 180,000 miles.

As for your dealership's response, if they really didn't think they were at fault they realy would have blown you off. Think about it, in 87,000 miles you could have changed the fluid yourself and tried to blame it on them, this would be an easy out. They must have had similar complaints from others. I would save the gear oil, and push for full reimbursement on the transmission. If you don't get any leverage there, you may want to try Ford directly, I've seen some people get some help by going that route.

If they're willing do do part of the cost, then they've already admitted fault and they're just trying to minimize their loss. Keep firm and insist that full coverage of the repairs is the only retribution that you will accept or you'll have to get other parties involved.

As for the gear oil, not really my area of expertise but I would say the main issue is the viscosity and the resistance to temperature. How did the oil look when you drained it?

Keep us posted, hope it works out.

 

[dogfriend]

Viscosity wise, ATF is lower in viscosity (thinner) than most gear oils. I believe that it is SAE 10 for ATF compared to 75W-90 for most gear oils

http://library.cbest.chevron.com/lu...b59e57d6ef7e4e29882569b50068ed05?OpenDocument

I think the main reason that Ford specs ATF for the manual transmission and transfer case is for better shifting in cold temperatures.

I don't know why it would cause your trans to fail, I would think that if anything it would protect the gears better under load, but there could be some corrosion issues or some other factors I don't know about.

edit: Don't use gear oil in the control trac transfer case, though. That is a different story.
Its best IMO to use whatever Ford recommends.

 

[SteveVB]

I think the big thing with the oil would be the synchros- most likely the pieces you see. The gears would be fine. Gas mileage down with the heavier oil.

Well they were at fault for the lube, but lets say the trans has a 300k mile life- so they shortened it by half.
I would ask them for half of the repairs, or something like you paying for parts and they provide the labor- if you trust them. Basically the trans was depreciated 1/2 of its life - you got good use out of it so its the other half you are concerned about.
You could press for full reimbursement if you really think they are running for cover, but if you do and they think its too much- it becomes a good decision to fight you about it. A reasonable request is more likely to get you a settlement in a reasonable amount of time with little effort. Asking for everyhting will most likley entail laywers and threats and they usually go no where fast , and in the end are not worth the time unless you are dealing with multi thousand dollar settlement.

Have they actually found anything wrong with the trans? Do they even know what the repairs will be? Replacement?

Good Luck

 

[Stephen]

Steve has a good way of looking at it also, seems to me like they're already offering to split the repairs with no argument.

 

[julia]

They haven't yet opened up the transmission -- don't know yet how bad its damaged, or what.

After posting this, I found an earlier thread on this site from a certified Ford Technician, Msupertec, who wrote that putting gear oil in would mean the shifting would be harder, which would put more force and pressure on the gears, thus causing greater wear in the long run (e.g., shortening the life of the transmission.)

It also appears they put gear oil in the transfer case too -- no problems there yet, but I'm understanding that should have been ATF too!

It's good to learn these tranny's can go up to 300 K with proper care. I do feel their mistake has significantly shortened the life of my tranny -- perhaps by as much as 100,000 miles- and they should take responsibility for that. Nevertheless, I will offer them partial payment, as a compromise and to avoid legal headache. I appreciate all this information and help - thank you. (Any and all other comments welcomed!)

 

[SteveVB]

Make sure they inspect the TC.

The transfer case may be a bigger issue.
Unlike the transmission where the gears sit in the oil, the transfercase uses a pump that channels oil through the output shaft. I think gear oil would be too heavy for the pump to move so the bearings on the output shaft may need some attention since the shaft and bearings sit higher than the fluid level(ie the need for the pump). That shaft turns in 2wd all the time.

good Luck

 

[julia]

Update: I'm almost there. The dealership has agreed to rebuild the tranny, and split the costs 60/40 (them/me) ... with parts at cost .... (but I had to make a strong case!) The info here helped - THANK YOU!

Now however, they are saying that only the bearings need to be done ..... and that the synchros, shift forks and gears are "fine". Their LABOR cost is $715 for just bearings. Does this sound right? and that one would just leave the old synchros in? How can I tell if there is enough synchro wear that I should ask that this be done too? (at the 60/40 split.) I feel they may be trying to do the minimum job, since they're not getting paid full retail. But they say the other parts are "within the tolerances". Any help or tips appreciated here! thank you!

(PS It was the reverse idle bearing case that was broken apart. )

 

[IgotTwo]

You did good!
These guys at Ford sometimes can be scarey.

I wanted to check what to put in my 5sp when I replaced the clutch. I went to a Ford Dealership with tranny numbers and the whole thing.

They told me:
they "put in whatever comes out"
....not a very inspiring answer.