No Crank

[Ornery]

Turned the key in the '06 V8 and... nuthin'. All dash lights lit as usual, but no clicking at all. Manipulated the gear shift a bit (but didn't shift to anything). Still nothing. Turned the key a few more times, listened for the starter relay, or even a tiny relay in the SJB. Nothing. Can't remember if I pulled the key out or not, but on about the 6th attempt it started right up.

Main question is, would the PAT system act like this? Friend says his Chrysler will allow it to start, but not continue running. Just don't know how these trucks work with the PATS, and I've never had a problem with my old Lincolns or Mercurys PAT systems.

 

[asull85]

It could be the PATS. A couple years ago my Explorer abruptly shut down in the middle of an intersection. I pushed it off to the side and waited 5 minutes and it fired right back up. Once I got home I scanned the OBD II codes and it showed a theft detected code. It hasn't happened since. If you have more than one key try them all and see what happens. Also if you have a code reader, I'd check for those as well.

 

[polizi212]

My 2000 Jeep Cherokee would start with a non pats key but within a few seconds it would flash a sentry light on the dash then stop running! I believe the Fords wont start if the pats key is not in place!

Did the ignition switch have a odd feel like something internal was out of whack? When it started, did you notice any sluggishness to the starter?

 

[Ornery]

Nope, nothing unusual at all. I was moving the truck to make room to pull the '95 Grand Marquis in to patch a leaking gas tank. Really looking forward to that, and then the Truck won't crank. I'm thinking, "What next?" At least I can deal with a starter relay, but it wasn't clicking at all. I'm going to glance at the schematics for the starting system and see if there's another relay in the SJB or fuse panel.

Just took delivery of a new Notebook. The one it replaced is from 2005 and has ALL my stuff on it. That includes the manuals for the truck. I'll start transferring it over this evening, and peak at that schematic. I'm just holding my breath, that it doesn't act up on my wife. She'll freak out at the thought of a tow or repair bill.

Edit: Just asked my wife if it's ever done this to her? She said, "Yeah, once a while ago." Sheesh, guess she didn't think it was important enough to tell me. I asked how she got it to work? Said she just turned the key again and it worked.

I wonder if it could be as simple as the ignition switch? I could pull it apart and clean it, if it's easy to get at. I have had to do that on the '94 Town Car.

 

[Ornery]

Well, I don't have my photo editing software installed, but I cobbled this out of paint:

Just as I feared, the starting circuit passes through the wondrous Smart Junction Box. Doesn't seem to be a relay in there, so I guess you would call it a "Solid State Relay".

A solid-state relay (SSR) is an electronic switching device in which a small control signal controls a larger load current or voltage. It consists of a sensor which responds to an appropriate input (control signal), a solid-state electronic switching device which switches power to the load circuitry, and some coupling mechanism to enable the control signal to activate this switch without mechanical parts. The relay may be designed to switch either AC or DC to the load. It serves the same function as an electromechanical relay, but has no moving parts. - Wikipedia

Since there are no moving parts, tapping the SJB should have no effect. Maybe a shot with a taser will kick it in the ass!

It would be one thing if I could slap a new $20.00 SJB in there and call it a day, but these things cost several hundred dollars, and have to be programmed at a dealer, for God knows how much more money. And, there's no guarantee the replacement won't have its own anomalies! Ugh...

 

[polizi212]

I hear you ornery 96 Crown Vic had a kind of smart junction box for all the lighting what a mess when that thing took a dump! I bet most if not all the relays in the SJB could be removed and replaced if a fellow had the right electrical tools! The ignition switch its self is fairly straight forward and might be worth a look to clean or replace. Seems most folks replace the ignition switch when the interior lights wont go off like they are supposed to!

 

[Ornery]

More Clues

Ah hah! It did it again this morning. This time I listened very carefully when I turned the key, and I DID hear it clicking in the SJB area. I don't see a physical relay shown in that diagram, other than the one in the battery junction box. I really doubt I'm able to hear that clicking through the firewall.

So, that eliminates the ignition switch. Gotta think that mysterious relay in the Smart Junction Box needs some attention. If I get up the gumption to tear into it, I'll take pictures of every detail. Not too sure it will be this weekend. Saturday is the last day we'll be able to mulch leaves, before rain and snow. Still have to address the leaking gas tank in the '95 Grand Marquis. My last attempt failed! Going to have to pull the damn tank out this time...

 

[Flag Gibby]

I would think that they would be using a DIAC or TRIAC in the SJB since solid state resistors are so bulky and not commonly utilized in electrical component controller manufacturing anymore.
Wasn't thinking DC when I wrote this... Probably just using a series of transistors to do the power switching.

 

[Ornery]

Something was physically clicking and it was near my left foot. No solenoid clicking. I'm going to check the Battery Junction Box first, since it's easy to get at. Probably should disconnect the starter, but that sounds like a little work...

 

[Flag Gibby]

I would say that the starter relay could possibly make that noise if it is trying to switch but not staying engaged.

 

[Ornery]

It dawned on me late Friday, that the Viper Remote Start may be involved. I wrote to the installer asking if it might affect the issue, linked to this thread, but haven't heard back yet. In the mean time, I started digging online, and see there is, in fact, an "anti-grind relay" in these remote start installations.

So, I'm convinced that's the feint click I'm hearing. Whether that particular relay is malfunctioning remains to be seen. It passes the ignition switch voltage on to the relay located in the Battery Junction Box, so that one is suspect as well. I swapped relays in there to see if the problem persists. If it doesn't, that was the culprit. If it continues, I'll be looking at that "anti-grind relay".

 

[Ornery]

Just got a reply from the owner of the Remote Start installing establishment.

John it sounds like a bad ign switch, very unlikely anything to do with the remote start.

Well, if it was the ignition switch, I wouldn't hear the clicking of the anti-grind relay, would I? I'm not going to argue with him unless it persists, and it's been golden since I swapped that starter relay. Too soon to say for sure, but it's looking like that was the culprit.