Methanol Injection

[LakersCentral]

There's been mention of methanol injection in other posts, but it deserves its own thread, as there's much to discuss. I'm very interested in this mod for my tuned Ex, as I've heard the turbos run very hot. It seems that not only will meth get a good deal more power (40-50+ HP?), but also help protect and lengthen the life of expensive turbos by running cooler.

Here's a number of things to research / ponder:

1. Brand? Snow Performance, AEM, Alky Controls
2. Differences in models? (e.g. for Snow Performance brand, there is: stage 1, stage 2, stage 3)
3. Other mods a must to have with?: tuner, thermostat, 3 bar map sensor, regapped spark plugs
4. Installation time / costs?
5. Meth fuel tank- use windshield wiper tank? how big is the stock one in the Ex? any place to put a bigger one?
6. Fuel costs? seems cheapest is $9 / gallon http://amzn.to/1B7HUSg . how much used per gas tank fillup?

Hopefully someone can shed some light on these things. I don't know if anyone has actually installed meth injection to the Ex yet. I know [MENTION=241644]Quicksilver[/MENTION] has had his in a box in the closet for far too long!

 

[shucker1]

Methanol injection is not designed to run full time.

Only a brief shot like Nitrous.

It's main function is to cool the combustion chamber so you can advance the timing and get more power without blowing a head off.

 

[LakersCentral]

Well, if my aunt's name was Steve, she'd be my uncle.

As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, many systems today provide variable injection based on demand. So while it may not being utilized full time, it seems it operates quite differently from nitrous.

Hoping some of the experts will chime in... [MENTION=234035]Livernois[/MENTION] [MENTION=225996]EcoPowerParts[/MENTION] [MENTION=227866]Ken Bjonnes[/MENTION] [MENTION=239381]jran76[/MENTION] [MENTION=226021]vteckiller2000[/MENTION] [MENTION=280075]BlackJac[/MENTION] [MENTION=267814]fourZero[/MENTION] [MENTION=256383]Sinister-CO[/MENTION] [MENTION=232945]Boostking[/MENTION] [MENTION=51028]SlwSVT[/MENTION] [MENTION=227579]Ryan327[/MENTION]

 

[fourZero]

Methanol injection is not designed to run full time.

Only a brief shot like Nitrous.

It's main function is to cool the combustion chamber so you can advance the timing and get more power without blowing a head off.

That's not correct at all. Most systems have either a variable speed pump (AEM, Snow, etc.) or PWM injection (constant psi, modulated flow via injector pulsing like fuel injection).

Every single system I've ever seen has a trigger (either RPM or boost, boost usually) where the system starts spraying at a predetermined set point and ramps up to maximum spray at another set point.

The SMC controller I have operates continuously and starts spraying at 12psi and achieves max spray at 18psi (25psi maximum boost regulated by SBC-iD). So any time I am at 12psi or more, I am getting some kind of methanol shot. A nitrous oxide system is almost always manually triggered, with the notable exception of anti-lag systems but those are very complicated and not typical.

I'm not aware of a single methanol system on the market that operates in the fashion you describe.

 

[Sinister-CO]

Four Zero has you on the right track. I run a progressive system on my Grand National from Snow. I can't remember what stage it is. I could check if you wanted to know. I have it set to start spraying at ten ramping up to maximum volume at twenty. You definitely have to have a tune to get maximum benefit from it. I installed it myself but it was several years ago so I don't recall how long it took. Seems like it wasn't that bad, but the GN has a little more room in it to work. I use the washer fluid reservoir for the meth. The pump sits down behind the bumper. I actually run the boost juice that Snow sells. It's a 50/50 mix. I don't need the extra fueling so I haven't bothered with full meth. The are several articles debating which is best. I'm not going to get into it. Just read through some of them and make whatever decision you're comfortable with. It does not prolong your turbo life. It gets sprayed post turbo, just before the throttle body on my car. I think that hits most of your questions. I can't remember if I've seen any Sports with meth yet. Several of the SHO guys run it with good results. It's been in the back of my mind for a while, but it's my wife's car so it'll probably take a lot of convincing on my part to get it done. Maybe one of these days.

 

[shucker1]

Four Zero,

Seems like you contradicted your self in your post.

"That's not correct at all. Most systems have either a variable speed pump (AEM, Snow, etc.) or PWM injection (constant psi, modulated flow via injector pulsing like fuel injection).

Every single system I've ever seen has a trigger (either RPM or boost, boost usually) where the system starts spraying at a predetermined set point and ramps up to maximum spray at another set point."

You may want to research something called "WEP" used by the American P-51D Mustang and the MW-50 system used by the Germans in the Bf-109.

5 hours tops on the Rolls Royce Merlin engine and then it need to be inspected for damage.

The problem with methanol and nitrous is that folks get carried away and "BOOM" the engine has a "Cast Iron **** Fit" and folks wonder why it happened.

Just my opinion.

 

[midnightsun]

You may want to research something called "WEP" used by the American P-51D Mustang and the MW-50 system used by the Germans in the Bf-109.
5 hours tops on the Rolls Royce Merlin engine and then it need to be inspected for damage.
The problem with methanol and nitrous is that folks get carried away and "BOOM" the engine has a "Cast Iron **** Fit" and folks wonder why it happened.
Just my opinion.

Yes meth its corrosive to iron. Ecoboost engines have iron sleeves for some reason instead of nikasil. I read new Ecoboost engines for the FordGT are plated cyls. We don't race with Meth so i don't have data to show at what rate Meth destroys iron cyls.

Window washer fluid i read is what most people use because its cheap and found everywhere. Don't get glycol added washerfluid. Meth should be stored in metal lined cans or it will evaporate and attract water from the atmosphere. Being Meth is stored in steel drums, it must not dissolve steel very fast. I read window washer fluid from the factory is 35% Meth but in reality because its stored in plastic containers 25% is said to be more accurate.

In the Evo community i see some builders get alot of business from Meth related engine problems. This might be due to the lack of charge entering the air intake. It would seem some evo installed systems cant evenly distribute a Meth charge to all Cyls. Its possible the meth injector is the culprit. Some injectors require pressure from the pump thats switched on and off to fire instead of acting more like a fuel system, always under pressure. The meth in the evo isn't reaching cyl1..that seems to be the posts constant. Carbon builds up, Carbon heats up, detonation happens, pistons melt or crack. Maybe the intake valve is open on other cyls the same time cyl 1 s is open on these engines stealing the charge? Valve float? Don't know. But i cant blame meth as causing the problem. Just that Cyl1 is octane deprived for some reason.

http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...th-injection-your-pistons-also-cracked-2.html

I'm still interested in meth for my ecoboost though....i just dont have the time / resources to tear down engines and inspect them like i do for our race sleds. Hopefully some builders / tuners / racers can tell us if problems occurred for them with meth.

Added: Its troubling that companies making meth kits use words like "i feel" or "I believe". As a racer i test everything and gather data / evidence to support what i see.

 

[midnightsun]

Oh i guess i should add to the to reply about the post i quoted. Meth inject in our ecoboost would be used to raise octane and cool the charge. This in turn allows us to raise boost to supply more air and add more fuel without detonation. The added pressures of doing this seems to be ok in these engines as the limits of stress aren't being reached. People are running racing fuel as a way to increase octane / flash point without published issues. From what i've read the Rolls Royce engine was already using a high octane fuel. The engine was already near its mechanical limit. Dog fighters added meth to even take these already highly turned engine ever further because it was life or death. They didn't care just wanted to win. If they used a lower octane fuel and supplemented meth to make up for the fuels lack of cooling and kept the engine below its limit theoretically things should have been fine. What's unknown from articles i've read is WHY they feel meth alone was causing excessive wear. Lots of unknowns..... If you can find me data on these unknowns id love to read about the issues they faced.

 

[midnightsun]

1. Brand? Snow Performance, AEM, Alky Control!

Adding to #1 - http://www.aquamist-direct.com They use a PWM-V system. The pump is always on.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/compare-4.gif

Im trying to get Alky info - ill update this post when i do.

 

[derryckz]

Four Zero,

Seems like you contradicted your self in your post.

"That's not correct at all. Most systems have either a variable speed pump (AEM, Snow, etc.) or PWM injection (constant psi, modulated flow via injector pulsing like fuel injection).

Every single system I've ever seen has a trigger (either RPM or boost, boost usually) where the system starts spraying at a predetermined set point and ramps up to maximum spray at another set point."

You may want to research something called "WEP" used by the American P-51D Mustang and the MW-50 system used by the Germans in the Bf-109.

5 hours tops on the Rolls Royce Merlin engine and then it need to be inspected for damage.

The problem with methanol and nitrous is that folks get carried away and "BOOM" the engine has a "Cast Iron **** Fit" and folks wonder why it happened.

Just my opinion.

Aren't those all airplanes? I'm not sure that's entirely relevant in this case since I believe those are OLD planes and probably not apples to apples comparison for a new direct injection engine. I have 3 modified twin turbo 6 cylinder vehicles and I'm not a fan of methanol as it's generally used as a band-aid for running additional boost and I'd much rater dump in some 116 octane or E85.

 

[midnightsun]

methanol as it's generally used as a band-aid for running additional boost and I'd much rater dump in some 116 octane or E85.

If you don't mind me replying, E85 is hard to find on long drives. I too was interested in it. It contains less energy then unleaded gasoline though and I drive like an @ssh0!e. 11 miles a gallon on 93. No local station serving E85. I have about 130 gallons of C16 though in the shed. I cut it with no ethanol 91 for our race engines. Meth from my reading doesn't last long. Like you, Id much rather use whats in my fuel tank then meth. I'm not going to keep the fuel in my explorers trunk and take up space just so i can refill every hour. - See my HPFP post about a possible future solution. (if someone decided to make one)

From my reading the plane engines were pretty sophisticated. People still use Meth in them without the issues of the past. It seems the piston rods are replaced on these sport planes. Wonder if they adapted modern electronics to monitor as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packard_V-1650_Merlin

 

[shucker1]

From my reading the plane engines were pretty sophisticated. People still use Meth in them without the issues of the past. It seems the piston rods are replaced on these sport planes. Wonder if they adapted modern electronics to monitor as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packard_V-1650_Merlin

Interesting.

Technology developed over 70 years ago still being used today.

Heck, most of the stationary drive engines I work on were built back in the 60's & 70's and run 24\7\365.

Stuff was just built to last.

 

[Quicksilver]

Yep, still in box. Do Meth kits have a shelf life? My Ex Sport just runs so well I haven't been motivated to mess with it plus I've built 2 other motors since I had the kit and now the GN is waiting for it's new powerplant. Heck, it will most likely get the meth kit first. 'New' GLH runs strong at 18PSI and no meth needed

 

[Rick]

I had a Kawasaki 750 Turbo (EFI) that I ran methanol injection on.
The only thing I didn't like about it was running out

 

[jimbob_sf]

I didn't want to open a redundant thread. I've done the reading, research... and I'm hoping to generate some discussion around doing it and not all the reasons why one wouldn't; I'll freely concede that there are some great mechanical and engineering minds reading this with valid counter-points. I'm set on putting in an oil separator/catch can and a Methanol injection kit on my '13 Sport to mitigate carbon buildup. At 50k miles and a Livernois 3 bar+Thermostat+plugs, I've got rough starts and horrible gas mileage.

I'm gravitating to the Snow Stage 2 MAF/MAP setup. The choice is based on a setup that only does one thing, deliver a MAP-based mist to maintain a minimum flow to keep the effective octane > 93. I've got enough complications in my life and simple is exactly what I want.

Questions I'm hoping someone has information on:
1. I'd prefer a throttle body spacer so I don't need to molest stock parts. Snow doesn't have an Explorer-specific plate, but they do for the F-150. I checked out JCWhitney and it looks like the Explorer and F-150 have slightly different dimensions based on different part numbers for spacers I found on JC Whitney for the two. Can anyone confirm that they are in fact different?

2. Does anyone know of a good location to put a 2.5 gallon tank? I'm lazy and don't want to have to fill a small tank all the time, but I'll be using -20 blue windshield washer fluid (in keeping with my objectives) so I can find it just about anywhere should I run out.

Thanks in advance for taking a minute to help out!

 

[Joe4jomi]

Hey i have a 2016 ford explorer sport 3.5 ecoboost im trying to install snow methanol injection kit and im have trouble find a boost line to tap into on the drivers side of the firewall anyone have any ideas?? Also it wants me to tap into a fuel pressure sensor and i dont think my car has one?

 

[mguy13sport]

Theres a brake vacuum line on the driver side. Its tucked up near the cowl

Fuel psi can be monitored using Torque app

 

[Joe4jomi]

Theres a brake vacuum line on the driver side. Its tucked up near the cowl

Fuel psi can be monitored using Torque app

Awesome thanks

 

[Joe4jomi]

Also i was wondering this also. I put the tank inside my cab and didnt know if someone could shed some light on this. Is it ok to put it in the cab of the car its my everyday driver and im only running 50/50..

Theres a brake vacuum line on the driver side. Its tucked up near the cowl

Fuel psi can be monitored using Torque app

Lso

 

[mguy13sport]

Also i was wondering this also. I put the tank inside my cab and didnt know if someone could shed some light on this. Is it ok to put it in the cab of the car its my everyday driver and im only running 50/50..

Lso

Yes you can put it inside

@ecoboost_xsport has a rear mounted tank (third row removed). Check his posts for the meth install write up