'97 V8 with 4406 and problems...

[410Fortune]

that was not snow! that was a frozen ice storm! turned my driveway and explorer into an ice cube!! all is well now though LOL

Cant wait to see what you come up with here, thats alot of typing for a little switch, I like your style!

 

[CDW6212R]

I'm sorry Mickey, I referred to the front of those switches as the back. I had them all apart with the bezel upside down etc.

So then the front section of the switches is where the mounting bosses are. Those can be swapped and the switch will go on like the OEM Explorer part. I'm about to try a GEM from eBay, there are few places to hunt used trucks here. I need to get my truck running with the Explorer parts first, like you and Aaron have.

The gas tanks have much different pickup assemblies, you don't want to casually change those. The newer tanks of 95-01 are steel and take up more room. If I do manage to get my old 22 gallon 93 tank into my 98 4dr. it will be good to keep the same capacity. The older Sport tanks are the shortest, and may be useful for an older Sport with the 4406 swapped in.

 

[MickeySpiers]

that was not snow! that was a frozen ice storm! turned my driveway and explorer into an ice cube!!

I stand corrected! In the East of University portion of Littleton, we had a rather nice fluffy snowfall that didn't bother to stick to anything other than grass & trees.

I'm sorry Mickey, I referred to the front of those switches as the back. I had them all apart with the bezel upside down etc.

So then the front section of the switches is where the mounting bosses are. Those can be swapped and the switch will go on like the OEM Explorer part. I'm about to try a GEM from eBay, there are few places to hunt used trucks here. I need to get my truck running with the Explorer parts first, like you and Aaron have.

I'm following you Don, but not relaying properly back to you - the part of the switch with the mounting bosses is going to have to be modified. The Expedition bosses won't match the Explorer ones, and tho the guts are interchangable, the half of the housing with the bosses has to match the circuit board it was designed for. I've attached a crummy picture, but the blue housing is the Expedition housing, and the black one is the Explorer piece - note the detents are different, which restricts the movement of the knob. Gotta modify the Expedition bosses so we can use that part, but I think that will be cake compared to sorting the GEM functions.

Went back to the boneyard this afternoon, the Expedition GEM was gone, only the cover was left. Had the letter G on it, labeled SUV Automatic 4WD - airbag was made in early '97 so I'd guess the truck was a '97. The TOD and 4wd relays were there tho (and simple to remove I'll add). They look identical to the Explorer pieces but the part numbers are different, upload is below. I did find a GEM from an '01 F150, so perhaps a comparison of that versus an Expedition's GEM & we can figure what part is the 4WD part...

 

[410Fortune]

LOL my house has a N facing driveway, it gets almost no sun this time of year, its always solid ICE!!

I believe Boot Hill ato salvage had a couple of expeditions last time I was there
they always treat me well, but it is a bit of a drive
Sviegles (sp?) often has expeditions also

 

[CDW6212R]

Okay then, the fabrication starts there. I had a plan to make the 2003+ switch work, but I'll wait to see what the 97/98 part needs. I bought a GEM and switch yesterday on eBay, my local yard that I like may or may not have one before I'd need it.

I will need the wiring pigtails from an Expedition for the GEM though, did you think to get those Mickey? Where were the TOD and 4WD modules, the TOD is a pain to pull from an Explorer? They likely are identical in usage and common. I'm glad some of the rest of you have better parts sources, you can lead the way. I'll be a while before I may get into the GEM project, I have a lot to do for just swapping engine and trans yet.

 

[MickeySpiers]

LOL my house has a N facing driveway, it gets almost no sun this time of year, its always solid ICE!!

Ah yes, I feel your pain, I too have a north facing driveway. I'm betting you have an ice chipper right next to your show shovel as I do!

I believe Boot Hill ato salvage had a couple of expeditions last time I was there
they always treat me well, but it is a bit of a drive
Sviegles (sp?) often has expeditions also

Sviegles? Shoot, I drove right past that place en route to Colorado Auto Parts - Sviegles has had a clobbered '97-ish Sport sitting in the same place along the fence for about three years now, so I assumed they never refreshed their inventory - sounds like they're worthy of a look-see tho. Radcliff has five junkyards on that one mile stretch of road, including the Audi yard I used to frequent when I ran with the turbo quattro crowd, guess I need to take the blinders off & check out the other ones... Does Boot Hill let you walk the yard?

 

[410Fortune]

boot hill will walk the yard with you, they are real nice to educated white people if you get my drift

Sviegles has new trucks, hes got more then you think, but you have to get the owner not the help, tey are not so helpful
owner = will jump through hoops to get you the parts you want....even with a torch

Colorado is the best though, if you ask nicely sometimes they will pull parts for you from trucks that are not even on the yard yet (behind fence on other side of lot) I used to know Jeff downthere, hes my neighbor (11 second fox body stang! wow! on pump gas!) but he doesnt work there anymore, but we used to walk the explorer's that were not even in the yard and he would get us what we need, the other guys, em maybe. They are really cool at Colorado too, but its of course hit or miss and a muddy mess!

 

[CDW6212R]

I received the 97 Expedition GEM and switch today. The GEM looks to have three of the four connectors identical to the Explorer, so maybe just Explorer pigtails will do.

The 97/98 switch has on of the mounting tabs in an unusable place(where the radio wall is), so more fabrication would be required to use that. The small light is very close to being in the same place as the Explorer switch. The later 2003+ switch would mount easier, but need more work on the bezel around the light(clear plastic).

I think I will pull both switches apart like I did with the other 2003 switch, and as Mickey did. If the only difference is the fourth detent valley of the housing plus what looks to be a stop, I'll consider cutting a section out of each there, and adding that detent to the Explorer part.

It's like doing some body work between styles, you need to find the easiest or simplest method.

 

[MickeySpiers]

Okay then, the fabrication starts there. I had a plan to make the 2003+ switch work, but I'll wait to see what the 97/98 part needs. I bought a GEM and switch yesterday on eBay, my local yard that I like may or may not have one before I'd need it.

I will need the wiring pigtails from an Expedition for the GEM though, did you think to get those Mickey? Where were the TOD and 4WD modules, the TOD is a pain to pull from an Explorer? They likely are identical in usage and common. I'm glad some of the rest of you have better parts sources, you can lead the way. I'll be a while before I may get into the GEM project, I have a lot to do for just swapping engine and trans yet.

The 97 switch I have will work with modification to the bosses, or like you mentioned earlier a metal clocking ring that you screw the Expedition knob housing to, and then clock it properly & screw it to the back of the Explorer bezel. Only asthetic issue then will be we have a four position switch, but the dash bezel only shows a place for three. Minor in my book.

I didn't think of the pigtails 'till I was halfway home, but I rather doubt either truck had them anyhow - both the Expedition & the F150 looked like someone cleaned out the dash area with a chainsaw. The GEM in the F150 was actually unlabeled and tossed in the rear of the cab, so I'm only guessing it's from the F150. BUT, those GEMS plug directly into the rear of the gigantic fuse block, and then pigtails come out - so, we'll only be able to get half the pigtails anyhow, we'll have to modify something to plug into the back of the GEM where it mounts to the fuse block. Guess I could take apart a fuse block & see if that turns into a pigtail, didn't think about that...

The TOD and 4wd parts are on top of the dash - the Expedition appeared to have a traditional dashboard which you could remove the top of (gone by the time I got there so I'm purely guessing) versus the Explorers one piece job, and those modules are right where the center speaker was on mom's '77 Malibu. The modules are both mounted to a small metal bracket which is easily removed, complete with a single pigtail. No airbag removal here, tho the TOD doesn't have the stud like our Explorer one does, so the mount will have to be modified - again, not a big deal I don't think. BUT, all the wires are different colors on both modules, so I don't know if they will interchange or not - plugs look right, so they may plug into the frankenstein wiring harness we come up with for the GEM anyhow.

BTW Don, the cheapo U pull it yards in Denver are where I have the best luck - Gen I and Gen II Explorers out here are a dime a dozen, about worthless in value unfortunately, so most I find aren't even wrecked, they just have "no emmisions" spray painted on them & wind up whole in the wrecking yards, owner unwilling to invest the $500 or whatever to fix them. May want to check the U pull it places near you where they don't even catalog these trucks.

 

[CDW6212R]

Thanks for the time that you put into that, all together we may come up with something. Here the one time I checked our one pull it place had nothing newer than 98. I didn't need any of that then, so time goes on.

I see on the side of the Expedition GEM a connector portion which looks like it takes an odd mate to it. That is likely where main power wires go to it, and individual wire connectors surely can be made to plug in there. The Explorer has one more connector on top, likely the same main power section like that of the Expedition. If it can will functionally work, the hard part will be locating the other GEM and reaching wires to it. That's why I hinted that I'd like to see if the 4WD section could be removed and swapped. I have my 2WD/AWD GEM from my Mountaineer, that can be looked into to see what space may be available.

 

[MickeySpiers]

Thanks Jamie, I'll check out Boot Hill & Sviegles, see if I can find this Expedition GEM. I remember the fox body 'Stang sitting in the employee lot at CAP, didn't know it was an 11 second car tho! I never get the helpful folks there, just the crusty mustache guy that always seems pissed off that he has to be at work...

 

[410Fortune]

Junkyards 101:

Owner = Happy
everyone else = Not so happy


yeah its just a dark blue fox body stang, no frills except big ass rear tires..... then he starts it up oh baby, he lives 8 houses down from he and I can tell you when hes driving his stang.....
11 seconds at Bandimere = wowee

he has about 10 cars in his garage, all custom paint, awesome!
I love my neighborhood

 

[MickeySpiers]

The 97/98 switch has one of the mounting tabs in an unusable place(where the radio wall is), so more fabrication would be required to use that. The small light is very close to being in the same place as the Explorer switch. <snippage> If the only difference is the fourth detent valley of the housing plus what looks to be a stop, I'll consider cutting a section out of each there, and adding that detent to the Explorer part.

Good catch, I didn't think to actually mount the Expedition switch to the Explorer bezel to check the clocking ring theory... I think modifying the Explorer housing as you said is our best bet. Doesn't have to be pretty, just functional! Doesn't look too horrible to just cut out that half of the rear and transplant it to the Explorer piece...

I see on the side of the Expedition GEM a connector portion which looks like it takes an odd mate to it. <snippage> If it will functionally work, the hard part will be locating the other GEM and reaching wires to it. That's why I hinted that I'd like to see if the 4WD section could be removed and swapped. I have my 2WD/AWD GEM from my Mountaineer, that can be looked into to see what space may be available..

The part that mounted to the fuseblock was the "rear" of the box - the GEM spooned the rear of the fuseblock. Single pigtails will probably work fine here, as you said. I'll try & find the other pigtails when I'm searching for the GEM itself tho.

I wouldn't be above physically having both 2wd Explorer and auto 4x4 Expedition GEMs behind my dash - her X has the stock radio so there's room for two GEMs. The V8 GEM has the 4wd stuff removed, hopefully not too hard to do a quick wire trace versus the Explorer 4x4 GEM and see which wires aren't there, and they can be routed to the Expedition's GEM - again, figure which wires aren't there in the F150 GEM, and we can route accordingly. I'm sure it'll be just that simple too...

 

[CDW6212R]

Oh yes, it always goes as planned, LOL.

 

[V8BoatBuilder]

Perhaps running two GEM modules is best, provided the Expedition GEM can live without a lot of its inputs, and inputs like speed, trans range are compatible signals.

Here's what it should need, at a bare minimum, for I/O:

Power
Neutral/Trans range
Speed
T-Case Shift Relay
T-Chase Front Clutch Relay
Dash Lights

Although why not:
1) Change the resistors in the expedition switch over to Explorer values for 4wd auto, 4hi and 4 low
2) turn the 2wd position into an open/closed switch to run a relay for the BWM.

This would require some precise soldering, but I think it's easier than the dual GEM.

 

[V8BoatBuilder]

Give this a try:

 

[CDW6212R]

Thanks for that thought Aaron, I thought of that when you did yours, but I didn't imagine that only simple resistors could be the difference. Now that we have had them open, and Mickey took pictures to display the circuits, your idea sounds better. I'd still like to have a shift motor change in 4HI to lock that, but how to do it can be not feasible.

The Explorer GEM is expecting one of three resistances. What will it do if the resistance is zero or infinite? Cutting out that 2WD path would make it infinite. We might do well to give it a test before going too far with the switch. Why don't we find the two circuit wires, and remove the output wire from the switch connector? That would show us what the GEM will do if we follow up by giving it the 4-position switch and nothing from the 2WD selection.

 

[V8BoatBuilder]

I'd still like to have a shift motor change in 4HI to lock that, but how to do it can be not feasible.

That WOULD require an Expedition GEM, but I'm not sold on the need for this, based on the torque output in 4hi vs 4low, and the situations that one would need 4hi vs 4low.

The Explorer GEM is expecting one of three resistances. What will it do if the resistance is zero or infinite? Cutting out that 2WD path would make it infinite. We might do well to give it a test before going too far with the switch. Why don't we find the two circuit wires, and remove the output wire from the switch connector? That would show us what the GEM will do if we follow up by giving it the 4-position switch and nothing from the 2WD selection.

Good pickup on the infinite resistance in 2wd mode. Let me think about a way to work some electrical trickery, although I'd be curious to see if the GEM would care. A test on the "cntrl in/cntrl out" wires is definitely warranted with a "test breadboard" and some regular resistors, before committing hari kari on the switch.

Such as this one from google:
http://www.google.com/base/a/425965/D14474889221392524578

 

[CDW6212R]

... if the GEM would care. ...

There is the key, what will the Explorer GEM do if the return wire is has no signal. I wonder if that is the same thing as having the switch unplugged? It may be, if it only monitors the return wire. Aaron or Mickey, could you pull the switch plug from yours to see what it does? I doubt that would simply give 2WD, a dash light should come on at least I'd say.

There is one other thing which could be done if the switch had space, or the A4WD position had enough power to trigger a relay.

If the Explorer GEM will only function properly with the three resistances, give it those and a duplicate of the A4WD. Make the 2WD position provide the same output as the A4WD, but add a parallel circuit from the 2WD path, out to a relay for cutting the brown wire power. How about that?

 

[V8BoatBuilder]

Aaron or Mickey, could you pull the switch plug from yours to see what it does?

I'll provide some theory, but I'm happy with my system the way it is and don't feel like modding for the expy switch. Sorry.

...or the A4WD position had enough power to trigger a relay.

Well, since electricity follows the path of least resistance, what if we put a relay in parallel?

We would need to figure out the downstream voltage on the control circuit. Does the GEM output 12v to the switch, or is it lower, like 5v?

We may be able to get away with a few diodes, but I have to think about it some more...