Bkennedy's SAS and Rebuild Thread | Page 31 | Ford Explorer Forums - Serious Explorations

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Bkennedy's SAS and Rebuild Thread

As some of you know, I am working on building a parts list for a shortened Dana 44, long radius arm with coil overs SAS. 5:13 gears to match my rear axle and an ARB, maybe an electric locker. I have a pretty good list so far. At the same time, I am going to swap out the rear drum brakes for discs off of a 99 Explorer.

Please note: The plan is to keep this project as simple as possible with mostly off the shelf parts. I am not a fabricator, just a decent welder with a what I would consider the minimum required tools (chop saw, cut off wheels, air tools, welder, etc.), who likes doing his own work. Your opinions are welcome, but what I really need is technical advice. I have been thinking about this for several years and now have the time and cash to make it happen. Please keep on topic with your advice and don't go off on a side track about how you would do it as a four-link, or caged arms, or leave the axle full-width because that is not what I want. I want a simple-ish set up that works.
 



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I saw a dude on youtube re-valve a set of shocks like mine in about ten minutes. I figured I can handle that. Like you said, I basically welded up an entire SAS with coil overs by myself (lots of technical help, but little hands on help). I purchased new valve kits from FOA. I was advised by them to just get the medium (.15) kits for the compression and adjust the rebound to match, but I bought four kits to make it easy on myself. They are only $5 each. For $10, I can just take the old shims out and replace with new. Keep the old shims zip tied together in a bag for extra parts............I love extra parts!!
There is a fab shop about ten minutes from the house that will charge the shocks for $10 each.
Today, I am giving the Explorer a well deserved bath and doing a through post-trip inspection on a creeper. I do that after every off-road trip. Saved me a lot of trail breakage.
 



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Yeah, shocks seem like black magic and there is a little bit of it when it comes to selecting what shims to put in them... But the physical work to actually do it will make you laugh when you see how easy it really is to do. Most shocks you may need a dental pick and some allen wrenches at most along with a socket set and a vice with some rags. You'll likely make a mess. Pickup some shock oil somewhere as you'll spill a little and need to replace it. You'll be able to eventually use it down the road when servicing them anyways. Some shocks do have more special tools but for most, that list will get you completely torn down and back together.

Like you said, youtube will likely help you all you need. There used to be a video by Brett King (king shocks) on youtube of how to rebuild/revalve a shock. It was a good watch and actually had more info then you needed. The idea is the same no matter what brand/color shock you're working with. Just the method of how they're held together is sometimes different whether something is threaded on and locked with a set screw or held in with a clip or whatever. The working's and ideas of what you're doing though is pretty much all the same no matter the brand. Oh, you may want a cheap micrometer from like harbor freight also if you don't have one. It's nice to check the shim thicknesses for reference. Really, the best thing you can do is notes for future reference and pictures. Make sure you pull them apart and just lay everything out as it comes apart paying attention to what was facing which way while you do it.

Just about every single time I ever pull a shock apart to just change oil, replace a seal, or whatever... I almost ALWAYS make a valving change. I'm in there, the shock is apart and typically you know what you wish was different. I'm always making minor changes/improvements and try not to let an excuse to rip a shock apart go by without increasing it's performance.

Some interesting pictures... You won't run your shocks as hard and probably not as hot as we do. This is our shock oil after just 100 miles in the race truck though. Lighter is new, darker is 100 miles of use.

100_1359_zps065c387c.jpg


Remember I was saying notes, pictures, and paying attention to how they come apart. This is a 3" king bypass setup off the race truck.

Picture028-1.jpg


R is my rebound stack, C is my compression stack, top to bottom in order of how everything came off the shock shaft and I intentionally lay it down in the exact way it came off so I don't screw up and slap the piston back in upside down or something.

Notice the two little holes almost dead center on the tapered part of the piston? The larger of the two is one of the bleed ports. On kings the hole is threaded and you can cap it with a set screw. This is a port that allows oil to just freely pass thru your piston bypassing the valving. It affects you slow shock speed stuff like in body rolls and some crawling. If you want slow movements to be really free and open, leave them all open. Close them all and 100% of your oil passes thru your piston with exception of that TINY hole right above it. I usually leave at least one open though so you still have some slow speed movement for the oil to pass thru.

Like I said, dental picks, allen wrench, etc... Other shocks do vary though. I've done bilsteins, kings and sway a way. Never been into a set of Fox or FOA's. Next month I'm stepping into a shock brand that most have never heard. Ricor... Those are completely different though.

Picture027-1.jpg
 






Crap, the forum's editing doesn't allow me to show you what I tried to in this post I'm editing right now. What a waste!!! LOL I put some serious time into that to just delete it now and type this excuse...
 






This is very informative..:biggthump

Email me what you are having an issue posting and I'll see what I can do..;)
 






Simply I was trying to do something like this...


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Those dashes when I type them out I've spaced them near the center of the font so that they look like a pyramid. But the forum automatically kicks them all the way to the left margin rather then leaving them centered so it just looks like a stack of lines that is getting longer rather then centered like a stacked pyramid. (if that makes any sense?)

I was going to show how a "flutter stack" is setup and also a "rate plate" and explain why they're used and some reasons he may want to eventually screw around with that type of valve stack depending how serious he really wanted to get with tuning.
 






Really, the best thing you can do is notes

Just about every single time I ever pull a shock apart to just change oil, replace a seal, or whatever... I almost ALWAYS make a valving change. I'm in there, the shock is apart and typically you know what you wish was different. I'm always making minor changes/improvements and try not to let an excuse to rip a shock apart go by without increasing it's performance.

One more thing after reading this again now a few hours later at home. This may be obvious but just in case... I mention the above and this is something I literally do. I actually keep a note pad specific to each of my vehicles with service notes, amount of use, type of use, etc. Especially on the race truck as it's still new to us and I'd like to keep track of service life of things like axle shafts, bushings, bearings, etc... Get a good history and eventually we can predict failures and replace before. That's sidetracked info but also in that book I also ALWAYS write down EXACTLY what I put in the shocks last time. Compression and rebound shim thicknesses, all the diameters and number of shims, number of bleed ports open or plugged. These aren't things that are set in stone. Just cause you pull a shock apart and say it has 7 shims on the compression side that are each .020 thick and perfectly incrementing smaller in diameter doesn't mean you can't decide to stack two .020 thick shims of the largest OD back to back making it act like a .040 and then just 3 smaller shims that are .012 and then one tiny one that's like a .015. Notice that only adds back up to 6 shims total... Doesn't matter, if that magical stack is what you think is going to work that's fine. All that matters is that the largest shim completely covers the oil ports on the piston. Other then that, you can come up with whatever craziness you want. (off track again... I enjoy talking about this stuff...) Point being of the notes. You valve your shocks today. You like them... 6 months from now one starts leaking and in that time you've decided you wished you had a faster rebound. Nice part is while you buy your seal kit, you also refer back to your notes from 6 months ago and you decide right there what you want to switch to and you buy your new shims based off you notes and now you have all your parts ready to go and it's a quick easy deal without waiting on shims or running for parts while your shocks are torn down. Notes are absolutely key in my opinion!

Also...

www.shockseals.com I don't think they have shims but they have rebuild kits for most brands at SMOKING prices for when the day comes that you have a leaker...
 






Simply I was trying to do something like this...


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Those dashes when I type them out I've spaced them near the center of the font so that they look like a pyramid. But the forum automatically kicks them all the way to the left margin rather then leaving them centered so it just looks like a stack of lines that is getting longer rather then centered like a stacked pyramid. (if that makes any sense?)

I was going to show how a "flutter stack" is setup and also a "rate plate" and explain why they're used and some reasons he may want to eventually screw around with that type of valve stack depending how serious he really wanted to get with tuning.

Like that? I just put the [ center ] tags around what you posted (for lines).
~Mark
 






Oh... I was doing the quick reply which didn't show that option. Yeah, that's exactly what I was looking to do! Darn it!!! I'll knock out another post on that stuff if anyone is really interested later on or tomorrow or something. I've probably got everyone completely confused already as is. LOL
 






Oh... I was doing the quick reply which didn't show that option. Yeah, that's exactly what I was looking to do! Darn it!!! I'll knock out another post on that stuff if anyone is really interested later on or tomorrow or something. I've probably got everyone completely confused already as is. LOL

All this is great information, since I could not figure out how FOA provides six different rates with only four shim kits, but now I get it. I am a little picky about how things work, and now I have lots of options. I am real pleased with how the coil over shocks work out of the box, so with a little tweaking, I am sure they will be fine.
I ordered the shims on Saturday afternoon and they showed up today. Only problem is I got two sets instead of four.

I seem to have the flexy part of the SAS dialed in fairly well. Mike was behind me when I was going up that ledge in Odessa canyon. I had to hit it at an angle to get the bumper to clear. When the left side tire cleared the top of the ledge, Mike said the right side tire was still on the ground. Front tires still rub slightly on the front edge of the fenders, and the rears rub on the front edge as well, but I can clearance those. Did not melt my front drive shaft boot on the Y pipe, so I guess that clears (I might move it over a little just to be sure).

I still haven't talked Mike in to getting shorter springs for his J^&p, it just sits too high. He could lose 2" in height and be much more stable.
 






One thing with FOA, I only have experience with the bumpstops so this is a little bit of 2nd hand info. I've heard they have issues with leaking. (my bumps did) but everyone I've talked to says simply pulling them apart, cleaning them thoroughly and slapping them back together usually fixes it. And... If it doesn't their customer support is GREAT and they'll fix issues no questions asked from the sounds of it and will go out of their way to make sure the customer is taken care of. To me, they sound like their one of those companies that knows they're not perfect, they're trying to make improvements, and till they do, they'll go out of their way to work with the customer to make sure everything is right in the long run. I guess it's just part of the fun of a cheaper entry level type product. Personally for most applications they seem like the perfect shock! Cheaper prices but still fully serviceable and adjustable.

And yeah, you can mix and match shims all day long. You don't have to run just a straight same thickness pack. You can double them up, leave some out, etc...

I guess while I'm here typing and since I was enlightened about the "centering" option on the forum...

Both of these next ideas are on the compression side. I never really see people doing exotic stuff on the rebound other then sometimes mixing and matching shim thicknesses but they're normally just a straight pyramid stack of shims.

"Flutter stack" is what I normally see this called on the compression side.


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Your piston would be on top since this is the compression stack. the compression stack is the stack on what I guess I'd call the bottom. What this is doing is allowing for a tiny gap for that first shim to flex around. This allows for a soft ride on minor shaft movements. That first shim flexes super easily but on a hard hit it would flex enough to get into the rest of the pack and then become stiffer. I usually see people using like a .010 or .012 shim that is one of the smaller diameter's offered. It's kind of a poor man's bypass shock. Sometimes some will do something like this which is the same effect, only a bit stiffer on the softer portion.

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The number of shims may be more, may be less... Just showing the concept.



The last set of shocks I did on one of my play trucks though, I used a "rate plate" which is simply a THICK like 1/4" disc. I literally made my own out of some steel plate and a hole saw. It's got to be small enough to fit inside the shock obviously but large enough on the OD that it's bigger then the largest shim on the compression. What a "rate plate" does is almost works as a valving limiter or like a limit strap for your valving. On the last shock I did on my truck I did something like this.


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Literally I only had 4 shims that were .020 thick and then the 1/4" thick plate. This basically kept me fairly soft on most stuff but then on a really hard hit where the shims would want to drastically flex open, they couldn't. They would flex till they hit that super thick plate and that's it. That's all the oil flow that would be allowed so basically the shock would be soft and then it would instantly spike to a super hard rate and no matter how much that shaft wanted to be shoved into the shock, it couldn't. Now you are creating a hydraulic bind of sort doing this so you need to make sure you're mounts and everything are up to handling the spiked forces this will cause but I was VERY happy with it.



Step further... I've seen people doing a combo of a flutter stack and a rate plate which is actually almost giving them 3 valving rates all within one shim stack. Start mixing in different thicknesses and you different diameters and you can see the possibilities get virtually endless.

Something like this...



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Let's say the thicknesses were all the same. The largest shim would provide a super soft ride till it got into the shims 3 and 4 counting from top to bottom. Then the rate would increase. But then notice I jump to a drastically smaller diameter on shims 5 and 6? That's allowing for a easy fulcrum for shims 3 & 4 to bend around so they're still fairly soft until the rate plate kicks in and limits the whole thing. The bigger the gap till the rate plate limits it, the softer it will be till that point.


Then start mixing in different shim thicknesses to the pack and well... We're already talking shock black magic and you're really getting crazy at that stage.

really though, once you have one apart. Look at the piston and how the shims cover the oil ports and you'll see how basic the whole concept is. All this will probably make some sense and then it's just a matter of coming up with what may work best for you. You'll be amazed if you really get into it what you can make your explorer do. Like probably mind blowing type stuff where you can flex it great, you can jump it, you can run fast thru moderate bumps and still drive on the street just fine. Really it's all how much effort you want to spend in the trial and error. When you're paying someone to do your shock tuning, you're just paying for their time learning with that trial and error in their previous experience getting to where they are now.


LOL, that should be enough to fry most people's brains!
 






So, all the shims do is restrict the amount of oil that passes around them based upon their flexibility/thickness?
 






Yes, basically in super simple terms, you're stacking some SUPER thin washers on the piston and they're completely covering some holes that are actually exposed on the other side of the piston. From the other side of the piston you force oil thru those holes and the oil actually forces that pyramid stack of washers to bend and flex up. The more resistant that stack of washers is to flexing the stiffer your shock will be. Basically you create a stack of washers that flexes in a way to make your suspension work how you want it to.

The rebound shims are on one side of the piston and the compression are on the other.


shock1_zps4fd945dd.jpg
 






Oh, here's two nice pictures...

Slow movements, the shims barely flex open.

shock_piston_slow_rebound.jpg



Faster movements, the oil has to flow faster and harder so it flexes the shims open more.

shock_piston_fast_rebound.jpg




Those are showing rebound movement. The shaft is being pulled out of the shock in those diagrams. Notice the shape of the port shown on the left side. It's completely covered on one side and is exposed on the other. Oil can only flow thru it one way and that would be when the shaft is being compressed into the shock.

There's TONS of different shapes of pistons, sizes of holes, shapes of the holes, number of the holes, etc... But the basic idea is all the same. Some people literally make their own pistons to dictate how much oil can flow thru the ports. The variations are endless and it's that knowledge that makes you able to charge for tuning service basically.

Here's a complete real life picture of basically what the diagrams above are showing you how the port is exposed. The oil passes thru that exposed hole and will force the shim stack on the other side open.

985847800_meNPY-M.jpg
 






All this shock stuff makes way too much sense now.. I guess my experience of making piston valve potato cannons helped :) or maybe it is just how it was explained, with diagrams.. :)

Now that I read all this good shock info (Thanks Bkennedy for bringing it up) I think I'm going to switch from the RS9000xl shocks to some FOA.. I just can't get the rs9000's set the way I want, and I wear out the front ones somewhat fast. On top of that FOA shocks are much cheaper than I thought..

~Mark
 












All this shock stuff makes way too much sense now.. I guess my experience of making piston valve potato cannons helped :) or maybe it is just how it was explained, with diagrams.. :)

Now that I read all this good shock info (Thanks Bkennedy for bringing it up) I think I'm going to switch from the RS9000xl shocks to some FOA.. I just can't get the rs9000's set the way I want, and I wear out the front ones somewhat fast. On top of that FOA shocks are much cheaper than I thought..

~Mark


the nice thing is revalving isn't that much money. And once you get a ton of shims, you have probably everything you need to really screw around and at that point it's just a matter of how much labor you want to put into it. Take really good notes of where you're at and how it worked and you can always easily go back to that if you make a change and things are worse. That's kind of the fun/beauty in it. A lot of people "want" bypass shocks but in all honesty, unless you stumble into them dirt cheap (like me) you don't need them unless you're really racing. For the average enthusiast, you can do some really crazy valving setups in shocks that will blow your mind and work amazingly well if you're willing to put in the work to get there.

Like I said, the labor of on and off the vehicle is honestly the hardest part!
 






Man, if you look around that link I posted above, there's virtually everything you need to know right there in pretty easy to understand terms! LOL CRAP!!!! Should've just linked that from the get go!
 












Man, if you look around that link I posted above, there's virtually everything you need to know right there in pretty easy to understand terms! LOL CRAP!!!! Should've just linked that from the get go!

Thanks for taking the time to explain and find information on it. Now I just need to buy some coilovers....
 



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Shoot, I guess I should also clarify since I really opened the can of worms on the shock stuff. ALL OF THIS is applying to your standard rebuildable performance monotube shock. I don't know much about the air shocks that are out there like the ORI struts or the ones King and some of the others make. I've never had any experience with those other then just seeing them on peoples vehicles in passing.

I'm sure there's pros and cons of the two depending how you're going to run your vehicle but I can't really speak up on that stuff. I try to keep my comments to stuff I actually really have first hand experience with and well, I just don't have it with that style of shock.
 






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