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Battery Replacement / Upgrade - Battery Re-Learn

Discussion in 'Stock 2011 - 2019 Ford Explorer Discussion' started by bburzycki, May 15, 2016.

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    1. Jon M

      Jon M Elite Explorer

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      If you're a Costco member, they have an Interstate battery for $93.

      The Autocraft that was in it when I bought it in January was on it's way out. That battery was dated 10/16, so it didn't last a year. I probably could've gotten Advance Auto to replace it, but I didn't feel like messing with it, especially when I could get a significantly better rated battery for under $100.

      I checked Consumer Reports good batteries. In this size, it was Interstate #1, two Diehards, which would be challenging since we no longer have a Sears, and the Duralast Platinum.

      The Costco Interstate is about $100 less than getting it somewhere else.

      I took my laptop and took care of the BMS reset in the parking lot.
       
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    3. Napalm

      Napalm Active Member

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      Shouldn't be any. full disconnect of the battery - charge up - reconnect. shouldn't affect the car in any way.

      If however you want to replace the battery and don't have a scan tool - leave the car disconnected for a longer time - say 2 hours or so. So as to trigger a BMS (battery monitor system) relearn. Or use a scan tool.
       
    4. Napalm

      Napalm Active Member

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      I would not use that on a modern car - IE a car with a battery condition monitor. LIkewise you run the risk of undervolting the computers and they won't like that. (a flat battery is considered dead at 10V - won't start the car.)

      while it might work - many newer cars will keep memory settings for hours with the main battery disconnected.
       
    5. Napalm

      Napalm Active Member

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      Meanwhile - I think I put it in this thread but don't remember.

      Those of you having odd issues with battery shut off or blanking of the MFT system on start up - other oddities. Make sure you are taking the key away from the car when you park it overnight. And Away - further than say 8 ft.

      Reasoning - notice how it lights up when the fob is present - the car searches for the fob presence all the time for those of us with push button start likewise if there is fob presence detected it will activate some of the control system in a ready mode as opposed to letting the system go to "sleep"

      Thus it has a higher overall drain on the battery while parked. My wife triggers this because she used to leave her key in the purse and purse in the car while parked in the garage. (she's do trusting). And in doing so over drained our battery such that it was dead after 17 months of ownership. I have seen reports with other cars where this happens with people taking the key out - but they say put the key on a hook in their garage or by the back door etc - such that it's still within sense range. Eitherway - it not only causes a larger drain it prevents the BMS from doing a full condition check for that cycle. Delay that enough - and drain the battery enough - and upon next condition check it will think the battery is failing fast and can set shutdown conditions.
       
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    6. toad350

      toad350 New Member

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      So I replaced my battery today and if I understand I don't need to do anything but disconnect the battery for two hours to reset the system? Thanks.
       
      Last edited: December 30, 2017
    7. thefranchise713

      thefranchise713 Active Member

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      No, either reset with FORScan, *or* leave the battery connected, but do not drive or otherwise touch the vehicle for 8 continuous hours.

      Note that if you don't reset with FORScan, the battery will still be assigned an 'aged' parameter. The state of charge/current flow will eventually recalibrate but the charging strategy will be suboptimal due to the aged state of the prior battery still being stored in the BCM.
       
    8. toad350

      toad350 New Member

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      Do most shops have the FORScan or just the dealers?
       
    9. thefranchise713

      thefranchise713 Active Member

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      Dealers will have IDS which is the 'proper' tool, FORScan is for the DIY'er.

      A shop's Verus or similar higher-end scan tool might be able to pull it off as a service procedure, but I'm not sure.
       
    10. Napalm

      Napalm Active Member

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      typically I've found leaving the battery disconnected for a few hours tends to erase most hard parameters in the computer.

      But on the other hand with BCM - it is constantly adjusting. So after a few test cycles it will reset on it's own - or it should. If the car is in sleep mode for more than 4 hours it starts to sample the battery capacity - upon next start up it monitors it change rate - and on the next sleep cycle adjusts it's parameters for battery condition. This is far more important on the cars with start stop. But this is what the BCM is programed to do.

      SO in theory - worst case - in a day or 2 your messages should go away.
       
    11. J_C

      J_C Well-Known Member

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      The summary to all of this is that you don't need to do anything. Just wait for the vehicle to relearn the new battery states.
       
    12. thefranchise713

      thefranchise713 Active Member

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      Without harming the car, yes, but optimally, no.

      Bottom line: if you have the scan tool available, reset if you can. If not, continue on at least a slight disadvantage to battery health or otherwise.
       
    13. J_C

      J_C Well-Known Member

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      It will in no way disadvantage the battery health. On the contrary, for the remaining time the system thinks there is a weaker battery it won't let the new one discharge as low so it would do the opposite of what you claim, contribute to a longer life for your new battery (albeit only for a few hours till it relearns).

      The only owner disadvantage is for a short period the battery saver circuit may kick in sooner, owner may still see the battery warning message mere hours until it accumulates more data points to adjust the battery profile.

      IF for some reason, you have a situation where the system never relearns, doesn't go through the hourly cycle and you find it annoying that it warns of low battery, then yes reset it. This does not affect most owners and should be considered a wait and see situation.

      Please provide data demonstrating your claim instead of speculations following 3rd hand interpretations. Data means voltage and current readings, not repeating things others have misinterpreted.
       
      Last edited: February 13, 2018
    14. thefranchise713

      thefranchise713 Active Member

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      I'm going by the workshop manual, although the general premises apart from a BMS-specific application you've stated here I do believe are ones I also trust as correct. Per the workshop manual--although it does state it differently depending on which one you look at (Taurus vs. Explorer, etc.)--the Body Control Module will treat the battery as in an aged state without a reset. This affects the charging strategy including how aggressively the battery is charged based on ambient temperature conditions, inferred battery temperature, and the availability of regen (idle coast down) charging. If there's some data out there comparing system performance (alternator command, etc.) between a new battery thought to be aged and a new one after a BCM reset, I'd love to see it--nobody's ever had the data to share, and I'd love to learn more about the system as well. The WSM only scratches the surface on the underlying algorithm. I've watched a small piece of it in action with a ScanGauge but not enough to learn what I had hoped.

      So, yes, by resetting, you're resetting the inferred battery life % (in my experience it seems to "set" at 80% until it truly recalibrates) that it draws from the Hall effect sensor, and thus avoiding a load shed problem if any existed. If not, yes, you have to wait the 8 hours per the WSM to come back. But the downside to doing that is you're losing some efficiency designed into the system to maximize the value from a larger battery--so ignoring the reset isn't as fault free as suggested. That was my main point, however minor it seems to most people in the grand scheme.

      As far as battery health, I shouldn't have put that--I flippantly put it as "or otherwise" as it doesn't make sense to me that a new battery wouldn't be at least slightly disadvantaged by the less aggressive charging strategy. In your narrative, you suggested it wouldn't be discharged as severely. I've never read that in the WSM, though I would believe it possible. The discussions I've read on the topic seem to infer more about charging up rather than how how the discharge looks. For example, when the car stops or nearly stops using regen charging based on age, etc.

      Do you have any graphs or data points? Not to challenge, simply to see more/learn. :) Cheers.
       
    15. J_C

      J_C Well-Known Member

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      ^ Neither the Explorer or Taurus manuals (at least those model years I've looked at) state that the battery age needs to be reset, just to wait the relearn period. It does mention battery replacement though, so it's not as though they omitted the topic, even going so far as to state there is the relearn period, so it does not make any sense that they would fail to mention a needed further step, if it were actually needed.

      As for data, there is no data I'm aware of that suggests a new battery will be overcharged, just some vague statements originating from service departments that sell that service as well as scan tool manufacturers, then that annoying thing the internet does, that people repeat that as if they have new information when it's not information, just rumor until there are specifics to back it up.

      The newer battery charging scheme is less, not more likely to overcharge a new battery, because it does take into account temperature, current in and out, and voltage, only putting back what is taken out. This is an improvement that makes things people never thought about, even less important to think about because the system adjusts itself instead of an unchanging charge rate. Irony.
       
    16. thefranchise713

      thefranchise713 Active Member

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      Question, for service manuals are you looking at the Ford published ones or different publisher?

      The Ford WSM, for what few snippets it does have on this, does state that the system needs to be reset. And that was in both the Taurus one I previously had access to and the one I have in electronic form (non-PTS version). The 8 hour re-learn is mentioned, but they are explicit that the battery age parameter is still an issue even after the re-learn.
       
    17. J_C

      J_C Well-Known Member

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      ^ I'm not looking at service manuals at all, rather owner manuals. If the owner manual describes battery replacement and doesn't state it's needed then it shouldn't be.

      It is not surprising that a workshop manual would suggest that a reset "needs" to be done when technically it doesn't, because until the 8 hours relearn process is complete, it could cause owner confusion that there is still a low battery warning and load shedding. It's a human-is-the-weakest-link scenario, that it's in the shop's best interests if everything looks right the moment it leaves the shop to avoid customer callbacks, complaints and return visits. If you were a customer unaware of this battery monitoring system, paid to have a new battery put in and were still seeing a battery message when it left the shop, what would you think? Screwed up repair, right?

      There's the thing, people who pay a premium to have a dealer merely put a new battery in, tend to not know much about automobiles or else they'd realize they can get the exact same battery (except for the brand sticker on it) at least 50% cheaper elsewhere.
       
    18. thefranchise713

      thefranchise713 Active Member

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      We can agree to disagree, then. There's a lot of great content in the WSM--much of which I wish were in the owner's manual.

      The good news is that if an owner wants to do this the "factory right way," they can with FORScan at the cost of an OBD-II and reset all the parameters that are supposed to be reset with a battery swap. And even a shop with a non-Ford OEM tool, like a Snap-On Verus, can do it as well.

      But I'll be the first one to tell you that most dealers don't even remember it themselves. :snicker:
       

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