Cam shaft degreeing to increase compression | Ford Explorer Forums - Serious Explorations

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Cam shaft degreeing to increase compression

Josh

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Joined
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City, State
Virginia Beach, VA
Year, Model & Trim Level
1991 4 Door Explorer XLT
I have read that advancing the cam can lead to an increase in compression. Is this true? I have the 410 cam in my OHV and was wondering if I could get a little increase in power by advancing the cam. I don't think anyone makes a cam gear thats indexable for the OHV so I wonder how many degrees you get if you skip a tooth and reinstall the chain.
 



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when they went to polution engines in 72 they retarded the valve timing by about 8 degrees which in a ford is the difference between the valley and the peak on the crankshaft gear one tooth will give you 16 degrees of timing a lot of people bump up one tooth then retard the dist back to adjust timing
 






Well what about the distributorless motors like the OHV?
 






i would assume u could do that, but you would have to get the ECU reprogrammed, because the timing is controlled by the ECU.

i'm not sure though, someone here should chime in
 






I had looked at megasquirt a while ago. I was just thinking of an easy way to up compression without a complete rebuild.
 






Josh,

for my reply im going to assume you aren't aware of the ins-and-outs of camshaft timing. say, the average joe with a family who loves his explorer and just wants a bit more grunt out of it. a guy with better things to do then sit at the computer into the wee hours of the morning reading about cams. please understand that by no means am i trying to call you stupid. yes, cam timing changes many variables (and i suppose it can change DYNAMIC compression), but i wouldnt say it's your simplest power adder. im going to try to make this as simple as i can, but it's still huge. if you want Comp Cams' opinion, or dont understand mine, go here.

just so you know, my cam knowledge comes from magazines, Desktop Dyno, a passion for a thump to my '69 chevy's 350, and a shop teacher who has built motors for 30 years. (im a high school student, big deal.)

cam timing crash course (from a guy who learns about cams into the wee hours of the morning):

im going to assume that we know how a basic OHV 4-stroke engine works. from now on, im also going to use the terms TDC, BDC, IVO, IVC, EVO, and EVC - any cam junkie is familiar with these as they make or break a cam. the first two are "top dead center", and "bottom dead center", which refer to where the piston is in it's stroke.

the next 4 stand for (and represent the actions of) Intake Valve Opening, Intake Valve Closing, Exhaust Valve Opening, and Exhaust Valve Closing. these figures are always represented in degrees of either [before or after] TDC/BDC. this might sound like mumbo-jumbo, but bear with me.

okay, so big deal, the motor turns and we get a sequence:
combustion, EVO, IVO, EVC, IVC, next combustion.

"wait, what? are you saying that the intake opens before the exhaust closes?" you might ask. yup! look at this comp cam graph:

800-615-ValveTimingIllustration-002.gif


those curves look a lot like cam lobes, dont they? coincidence? hell no.
the valve may only be cracked open 0.050" at TDC, but the valve is still open and air is still flowing. why? because on a naturally aspirated engine, air&fuel is introduced through vaccum, right? the open exhaust port creates that continuing suction through the chamber as the piston rises. when both valves are open, this is called VALVE OVERLAP.

your cam is designed to cause the valves to behave in a specific manner, corresponding to the different times of the crankshaft's rotation. makes sense, right? im basically saying the valves move in harmony with the crank.

that said, by changing the cam timing, you're moving the whole cam graph by whatever amount of degrees. for arguement purposes, and to make it easier on me, let's say you're moving by 10 degrees ADVANCED.

so, at the TDC in the middle of the cam profile at officially 0 degrees, instead of only a little bit of each valve being open, your new TDC behaves as it would at the old -10 degrees. why?
because by changing your timing, you're telling everything to happen 10 degrees before it was designed to. an appropriate analogy is a carefully designed Olympic runner who starts precisely early at the 100m sprint.

still with me? good! now that we have our newly timed valves (or olympic runners, if it helps) starting early, let's look at what this changes.

look at 0 degrees, TDC. our intake valve is closed, but the exhaust valve is open a bit more. this means that we're kicking more used gasses out, but injecting less fuel into the combustion chamber at the moment. thats fine, but how does that affect flow?

unfourtunately for you i cant tell you what formula tells you because i have no idea. just take my word for it that flow will change. and when flow changes, what else does? horsepower, and compression!

I have read that advancing the cam can lead to an increase in compression. Is this true?
that depends on what compression you're looking for.

if you're looking for a ratio like 9.0:1, or STATIC COMPRESSION, your answer is no. but if you're looking for a PSI value at the spark plug, or DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, the answer is yes. why?

look at the cam profile. when the valves are overlapped, there is no compression occuring. why? because any air that tries to compress gets kicked out of the exhaust valve and stays at the same pressure.

what happens if we re-time the cam to the point where when the piston moves up the stroke towards TDC, no valves are open and the air MUST compress? well then pressure would increase because more air molecules are being forced together and none have anywhere else to go.

"so my answer is yes, right? alright, cool! ill go whip out the tools!" is what i hope you arent saying. there's a few more things to consider.

chances are very high that by blindly advancing a cam you can gain some dynamic compression and your engine will pickup a few ponies. this is a pretty good roll of the dice because to be fair, the factory designs a cam with other things besides power in mind. idle quality is a big factor, only a select few like their SUVs lumpy at a stoplight. soccer moms would rather have their trucks purr at a stoplight because it vibrates less and makes less "weird noises", yes? so your cam is designed to purr at idle like a happy kitty.

but that's besides the point. whole new set of conditions: assume your cam has been re-timed and the exhaust valve is fully open when the piston is at TDC. is your OHV motor what's called an "INTERFERENCE" engine? -insert blank confused stare- that means that if your timing belt/chain were to snap and come out of harmonius timing, your valves can physically collide with the piston. yeah. so that means if you dick with the timing to the point where the valve can touch the piston, and at 250rpm when you hit the key, there's a lot of force involved. unfourtunately, valves bend before pistons stop moving, so then you have a bent valve which can lead to a whole multitude of problems i hope i dont have to explain.

i could go into the process of degreeing the cam, in an OHV engine, it involves tearing the intake, valve covers, pushrods, lifters, and rockers out. in short? it pretty much is a total engine overhaul!

finally, lets assume that the compression increases and all goes well.
how much does it increase by? can you still run pump gas? will it detonate?
what happens if it detonates and you fry a piston? uh-oh... total engine overhaul...

so, to conclude this amass of jargon that i've spelled out?

-cam timing can increase dynamic compression.
-cam timing is a pain in the ass to do.
-cam timing depends on many factors, including cam spec, head volume, and whether your engine is an interference-type or a non-interference-type.
-cam timing is a pain in the ass to do.

to be honest josh, i would look at other things to do before re-degreeing an OHV motor. do you have a cold air intake on your truck? hows the exhaust? how's the plugs? what is your rear axle ratio? changed the computer yet?

i've probably skipped something elementary, but hopefully this somehow helps.
ian
 






Holy crap!:confused: Very good write up that I'm sure will help others as well. I really appreciate you taking the time to write this up. As far as the interferance engine part, I actually saw that on extreme 4x4 yesterday. As for a lumpy idle, I would love that. Nothing sounds better than a big lumpy cam. I always pride myself by thinking outside the box.

So, one other question: Why not run solid rollers?
 






i dont know enough to give you a yes or no answer.

whats been done to your exploder?
what are you looking to get out of it?
what's your budget in mind?

and for the rockers, specifically:
what kind of cam are you running, in terms of hydraulic or solid?
what kind of rpm is your explorer seeing?

i could tell you "yes, go for the roller rockers" but that's like saying "yes, titanium lug nuts are an effective way to save weight." sure it does it's purpose but if you have 500lbs on your truck that you can lose first, maybe the titanium's not your best first option. ;) see what i mean?
 






Fascinating stuff about the overlapping openings ilh :thumbsup:
 






im gonna take that one as a compliment! so thanks. :p:
 






I was actually thinking about solid roller lifters. I have the 410 cam, cat back, BBK headers, BBK throttle body, and a Pro M MAF. I am more interested in Torque than anything. I'm really tired of the ticking lifters, but the 400 I would spend on that, could be spent elsewhere. I'm pretty sure I am going to have to replace the rockers with all the noise thats coming out of them. I have a whole other motor in the garage to tinker with. :confused:
 






Here are the cam specs

Part Number: CCA-49-410-8
Cam Style: Hydraulic roller tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range: 800-4,800
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 201
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 210
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 201 int./210 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration: 256
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 266
Advertised Duration: 256 int./266 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.465 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.500 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.465 int./0.500 exh. lift
Lobe Separation (degrees): 112
Intake Valve Lash: 0.000 in.
Exhaust Valve Lash: 0.000 in.
Computer Controlled Compatible: Yes
Grind Number: FV6 256HR-12
 






josh,

im not actually at home right now, im actually over in hawaii. :cool:
i'll give you a well-thought out answer when i get back home sunday, so i can tear into Desktop Dyno.

hold tight! :p:
ian
 






:confused::confused::confused::confused:
 






holy smokes Ian thats the best write up i've seen in quite sometime. very brilliant for a high school student.
 






ilh-
WOW!!!!
I am going to sticky this in the need for speed forum
Thanks!!

And-for the record-
Please explain what you think results from my FMS x-303 camshhaft being installed 4 degrees advanced?
 






i'm in the same school as ian, and let me tell you, he knows his stuff!
 






I was actually thinking about solid roller lifters.

josh, you mention this is a hydraulic roller cam - are you swapping from hydraulic to solid lifters? i sure hope not, because this is a BAD idea. the cam profiles are totally different and you'll either end up with a ****ty-running truck or you'll end up with wasted lobes on that cam.

jtsmith, wow! all the information on your page about your mounty is correct, thats quite a hot motor!

here's what DD2003 tells me, with these specs:

4.030x3.400 bore/stroke V8
"Wedge pocket porting/large valves" 2.02/1.60 (do you have the eddy's flow specs? that would make it more accurate)
10:1 compression
1000cfm induction@1.50inHg
Tuned Port Injection manifold
small-tube headers w/ mufflers
x303 cam (.542/.542, 224 duration, hydraulic roller)

straight-up left, advanced 4 degrees right (in IDEAL conditions)

jtsmith347.jpg


looks like a nice motor! but as for the advance? only a bit of volumetric efficiency (which could work out to a pinch better mileage?)
which makes sense to me because ford motorsports designed the cam for that motor so they've probably tried advancing and retarding the cam. do you have an adjustable cam gear?

let me know if any of this is wrong, i can easily change it in about 5 minutes.
 






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