Flowmaster vs Dynomax vs borla???

[Jornum1]

OK all just wanted to get some feedback on the best dollar for dollar exhaust. I am looking for just a muffler because none of these brand, or anyone makes a cat back system for my '99 sport yet. I am looking for a performance muffler. Who will give me the best results for my money. And if anyone knows a cheap places to get one let me know. thanks everyone
Jason

 

[scott]

I have to recommend Flowmaster. I have had the cat-back on my '91 EB 4x4 for about 2 years and love it. I have also had Flowmaster's on my Vette for about 5 years, they still sound & look good. They will give more hp/tq than the others.
However, if you plan on keeping it 75 years I would go with Borla.

 

[QTRMILE]

The only thing you are going to really be gaining is sound. The performance gains by putting an aftermarket muffler on a stock motor is going to be minimal. So what I suggest is to give a listen to what they sound like and see what appeals to you. Flowmasters are renowned for a pronounced "drone" that drives a lot of people nuts...

As for more HP/TQ from the Flowmasters over others, where did you get your data? I'd be curious to see this as Borlas consistently outgain Flowmasters by a significant margin on the flowbench and on the dyno. Dynomax is as good, Bassanni is head and shoulders better, and I could go on and on...

I own flowmaster exhaust too; three vehicles to date as a matter of fact. But I don't claim them to be best because I have them. They are a low cost muffler that provides a pleasing exhaust note. Two of the Mustangs I have had already had them, and my drag car has them because they were the cheapest 3" mufflers I could get. The best? No, I could probably pick up significant power gains by switching to a straight through design. Turbo applications consistently pick up 40-50 hp by ditching Flowmasters and using Dynomax Race Magnums. And that's on a dyno, not seat of the pants...

Anyway, concentrate on what sound you want. Try and find people with different mufflers and give them a listen. Even Flowmasters/Borla/etc. on a Mustang or Camaro will give you an idea of the sound you can expect.

Good luck, Rob



------------------
no Explorers, but plenty of Fords:
'82 Mustang GT 351W
'82 F250 351W
'91 Mustang LX 5.0
'78 Mustang II pro street

 

[QTRMILE]

Again I will ask, where do these horsepower and TQ claims come from? You will NOT see that gain, it won't happen, it can't happen.
The focus should be on the SOUND he wants, as that is the only thing he will really be gaining. This is important to a lot of people, and obviously is to him. He should try and HEAR the different mufflers to get an idea of what he likes.

The one thing I would like to see happen is that people make educated decisions based on FACTS rather than rumor or unsubstantiated claims. And the claims you make, on a 120 hp vehicle in your own admission, are simply laughable.

This is not meant to hurt your feelings, not meant to make you mad. It is meant to open some eyes. Look at the exhaust system: do you really believe the muffler and tailpipe are the major restrictions? Look at the manifolds, look at the exhaust piping, look at the cats... THESE are the major restrictions that are costing you power. Replace ALL of them with higher flow pieces and you MIGHT approach the power gains you are quoting.

Have an open mind here, I might actually have something to contribute...

Later, Rob

------------------
no Explorers, but plenty of Fords:
'82 Mustang GT 351W
'82 F250 351W
'91 Mustang LX 5.0
'78 Mustang II pro street

[This message has been edited by QTRMILE (edited 10-27-1999).]

 

[LukeDog3D]

I agree. I put on a flowmaster 2 chamber
and could not tell a difference in acceleration. Gas milage, however, improved by an average of 1 mpg. I timed the truck 0-60 before and after the installation and did not come out ahead. Granted, it sounds nice, looks tough and has a good reputation, but I don't believe the claims in the Summit Racing catalogue. They say that a flowmaster system on a 91-94 4.0 Explorer gives an instant 15 h.p. and 20 ft. lbs increase.

 

[FordManiac]

If you're looking for a good performance to dollar ratio, I'd go with Dynomax. I paid $49 for my Dynomax Super Turbo system. I like the increase in performance in the 2000+ RPM range, but it really does sound stock at idle and dosen't scream when you get on the gas. That's what the holes in the airbox are for.

 

[xr600boy]

I have a Flowmaster cat-back on my 92. The system has an "SUV" muffler, and although ther was not a significant increase in horsepower the sound is nice. The best performance was the Hypertech chip I installed. The Flowmaster cat-back from 98 should work on your 99 sport.

 

[scott]

My post was not to claim Flowmaster's are the best because I own them. It was to relay that they offer very good power for the money. I think that 15+ rear wheel hp and 20+ ft lbs. tq. is nothing to sneeze at for a street vehicle. Jornum's question was in reference to an Explorer not a race vehicle or one with forced induction. In those instances straight through is obviously a better choice. But for something putting out less than 120 bhp(est.) Flowmaster's would be the best bet for performance/cost.

 

[CSimpson]

Anybody have any input regarding the Gibson system? I've been going back and forth with Gibson and Flowmaster, and now it sounds like I'll need to look at Dynomax. By the way, I'm going for the cat-back. Thanks in advance.

Craig
95 XLT

 

[Jornum1]

Thanks alot everyone, your info helps alot. I think I am going to to with the flowmaster, my friend has one on his blazer, and it sounds great.
Now this is going to sound stupid, but whats the difference between the stock exhaust system, and a aftermarket Cat-back system? Should I get a custom piping done? They dont make one from any of the dealers. Is it worth it? Thanks again
Jason

 

[scott]

Jason- Good choice!
Rob-The #'s I mentioned came from Summit Racing, I've been buying from them for years and have no reason to doubt them yet. I have spoken with Dan at Flowmaster(1-800-544-4761) and was told they average about 10% increases. which is very close to the Summit #'s. Summit lists increases for almost all of the exhaust products they sell. Flowmaster and Borla being the top of their gainers. They don't list "race" mufflers.
As for my "claims on a 120 hp vehicle being laughable" if you're talking about my 120 bhp estimate, that was generous. according to Superchips Inc. dyno info a 4.0 ltr with a supercharger produced 136 bhp and 192 ft lbs. So, without the huffer it will obviously be lower than 136 bhp. If you're talking about the exhaust gains being laughable then someone needs to dyno a stock vehicle then add a cat back and see the results(preferably an Explorer since this forum pertains to them!). Two different sources gave very similar answers on the same question so my conclusion is drawn until I see it charted on a dyno showing only "minimal" gains that you claim aftermarket will give.
As for "performance gains from an aftermarket muffler on a stock vehicle being minimal" why not do a before and after test? Having seen "Borlas consistently outgain Flowmasters on the flowbench and the dyno" you evidently have some type of access to these test methods. Regarding the flowbench method, higher flow doesn't always mean hp/tq increases unless you're dealing with race engines(which we're not).
One last thing, if Flowmaster's have the "drone" that drives people nuts and offers only "minimal" gains then why have you owned 3 vehicles equipped with them? If they were on there when you bought them why not trash them and get Borla or Dynomax?

 

[kvo]

CSimpson -

If you're still looking for feedback from a Gibson owner, I can tell you that the system I put in has been great. The increased in power, to me, is definitely noticeable, the installation is extremely simple, all bolt on parts, the cost is also reasonable, and the sound is a nice rumble at idle, not too loud at speed. In general, I have been pleased with the set up, the quality, and the performance.

 

[scott]

Jason,
Cat back systems include everything you need to replace your stock exhaust from the catalytic converter to the tailpipe. I would recommend this if you have the extra money because if yours is like mine it has a resonator as well as a muffler. Getting rid of both will be more beneficial than just a muffler replacement. You will notice that the stock system is one piece and will have to be cut to be removed but it's relatively easy. My Flowmaster system was significantly lighter than the stock system as well.

 

[scott]

kvo
Is your Gibson a dual exit system? Where did you get it and how much was it?

 

[QTRMILE]

Scott, Scott, Scott...

A good rule of thumb is to take a manufacturers claims and count on seeing 1/3 their numbers at the most. Happens time and time again. As for before and after, uhh, this has been done like a million times by independent sources. I too have bought from Summit for years, and they simply reprint manufacturer supplied info in their catalogs.

Then you further discredit yourself by quoting Superchips... Those things are snake oil in a modern form. The information is out there on chips too. Don't you think any of those claims you see in ads are a little unbelievable?

As for flow not equalling TQ/Hp, on what do you base this statement? I don't rely much on flowbench info for mufflers because a flowbench isn't sending hot, expanding, pulsing air through the muffler so it is not a TRUE reflection of performance. But a higher flowing muffler will provide a HP gain if the previous muffler was a restriction, its just the way things work.

Now, I need re-emphasize one point: the gains I have discussed of one muffler over another is in a optimized system where the muffler is the restriction. The application we are discussing here does NOT have an optimized exhaust system (far from it.) The muffler is the last in a series of restrcitions in the system. Removing some of that restrcition by putting a aftermarket muffler simply can't help that much when the rest of the system remains unchanged.

Finally, your question about why I own Flowmasters. Perhaps you were not paying attention so I will run down the reasons again.
I like the sound (even though it seems EVERYbody has them.) They are an inexpensive option for those of us on a budget. The do a good of opening up the restriction in the factory sytem. I also have equal length headers and off road pipe so I am seeing an improvement in performance (all the major restrictions are gone...) Two of the cars I have bought already had Flowmasters on them. The drag car uses flowmasters because they were the cheapest 3" mufflers I could get. Plus they sound cool behind a high compression 351 Dead Link Removed

I'm just trying to present facts I have aquired over the last 12 years of building and racing Fords. I hope you aren't trying to start a pissing contest with me, I can assure you you're in WAY over your head...

Later, Rob

------------------
no Explorers, but plenty of Fords:
'82 Mustang GT 351W
'82 F250 351W
'91 Mustang LX 5.0
'78 Mustang II pro street

[This message has been edited by QTRMILE (edited 10-28-1999).]

 

[CHH777]

Sure, it's possible to get these (50+) HP increases with a simple header + cat-back installation. Just set up a before/after scenario the same way these exhaust manufacturers do:

Remove your engine and place it in an air-conditioned room. Force-feed an optimized (temperature/humidity/barometric pressure regulated) air mixture into the intake. Extract the exhaust via a vacuum diaphragm. Remove ALL loads on the engine (water pump, AC compressor, steering pump, alternator, tranny, etc.). Now install the headers and cat-back. There, 50+ HP increase!

Remember, these HP increase claims are based on EXTREMELY optimized conditions. Marketing ploy? You bet!


I have to agree with Bob on this one...

 

[kvo]

Scott -

No, my Gibson has only a single outlet, approximately the same location as the stock outlet. Can't remember where I got it from but it was around $220-$250.

Woww, a lot of discussions!!!

 

[scott]

The zipper is down, let the pissing begin smartguy.
If before and after has been done on an Explorer(ie... the subject of this forum and Jason's post) then find it and post it. As for discounting myself by quoting Superchips, what the hell are you talking about?! The quote I used was one of a dyno test they did on a 4.0 ltr before their product, not after it as if I totally believe the gains they said they recieved. On the subject of flow, surely an "experienced" builder/racer has seen or heard of engines losing power due to loss of backpressure! That would be... from too much flow. Numerous car mags have done comparos on exhaust equip. and shown that most engines like a little back pressure. Do you see where I'm going with this? Higher flow does NOT always necessitate more hp/tq. If you read that correctly(and my previous message) you will see the word higher. As in Borla may have a higher CFM(that's cubic feet per minute) rate than Flowmaster but may not make as much power.
Your discussion of gains between mufflers in an optimized system is total BS! Even a moron could establish that the Ford Explorer does not have an optimized exhaust system. So, who gives a rat's ass what differences can be had on vehicles that they don't own or operate! Stick to the Explorer when stating your info or don't bother because it may not apply.
I'm curious about the specs of your "high compression 351", what methods were employed to gain the high compression? We all know high compression will yield high power but the true test of someone's claimed knowledge will be demonstrated by the methods they employ in their build. So, care to share?

 

[Jornum1]

Well looks like I opened the floodgates on this one Not my intention, but at least I am learning alot! Of course I am still wondering who to believe but that is besides the point
Anyway, I have a new question.

I am pretty set on the flowmaster now, and I had asked about whether it was worth getting a custom bent catback system.

My question now is, should I get the whole system, or just the muffler, and have the resonator removed? If I dont get the system, what is the size of the stock piping? and is the only purpose of the catback piping to get a larger size tubing. I am not a mechanic, but know the basic theory behind, it. I am looking for as much info as possible. I love this stuff, and soak it up like a sponge, so keep it coming all Thanks to everyone
Jason

 

[QTRMILE]

Scott,

First off zip it back up, that's a mental picture I don't need Dead Link Removed

You helped me make my point. Quote: "even a moron could establish that the Ford Explorer does not have an optimized exhaust system." That, my friend, was my very first point. When you have the restrictions we are talking about, you do very little to improve performance by changing mufflers. Think of a series of about 6 tight kinks in a hose. The water isn't going to flow out of the end of the hose by undoing the last kink, is it? How about adding a section of sewer hose to the end? Think that will make the water flow any better through all the kinks? Well that is what you would have us believe with regards to an exhaust system...

As for my muffler comparo, again, I was offering information. It may not make a bit of difference on the explorer if you use a flowmaster or a Dynomax race magnum (I hold it will NOT...) But just because you can't use the info you think I should not share it? I was perfectly clear in establishing that this was on a modified system. I also felt I was clear on establishing that unless you have an optimized system it doesn't really make that big of a difference. Didn't I tell him to focus on SOUND? Man you keep making my points for me, maybe we really do agree but we just can't see it...

Now on to the benefits of FLOW. An engine is an air pump. The more air you can pump through the more power you make. Period. Now, with that being said, I will acknowledge that you have to actually match all your components to work with one another. Mismatched components cause the performance loss, NOT the fact that something has superior flow characteristics. You may have a discernable shift in your tq/hp curves, but more flow will make more power. I will give you the low end thing in this forum, you don't really want to build an engine that flows well at higher rpms because it might very well shift the tq curve up out of what your truck is geared for. The trick there is VELOCITY. Maximize the flow, but keep the velocity up. You'll have gobs and gobs of bottom end as well as something that will flow well and make good power.

As for "stick with Explorer info or don't bother?" Puh-leez! Do you think all the research I have done is so narrow as to only include 302's or 351's in Mustangs? Most of the stuff I have learned has come from experiences with all sorts of stuff; including turbo'd 530cid aircraft engines and ski boats with small block chevies. Engine theory is universal man, the sooner you learn that the better off you'll be. If I had dismissed everything I saw the Chevy guys doing because it wasn't on a Mustang I would still be going slow Dead Link Removed

Okay, here's the rundown on my 351:
I currently run 10.8:1 cr, achieved using 64cc chambered heads and custom flat top pistons that actually come up OUT of the deck. This winter the heads come off for some port "modifications" Dead Link Removed and decking to reduce the chamber volume and increase CR a little more to closer to 11 or 11.2:1. And that is with iron heads, not aluminum. Aluminum headed motors can run more compression because aluminum dissipates heat, effectively killing a good half point of cr. Iron keeps the heat in, and heat in the combustion chamber equals power. If you want to know why I went about it this way it was to achieve more compression while still allowing good flame front travel (instead of having to go over a big dome) and maintain good squelch characteristics. I use iron Dart heads and can still run on pump gas (I've had to drive it with 87 before, yikes!)

If you want to know more about my 351, feel free to ask. I'd be glad to share, I don't claim to know everything but am always happy to pass on what I do know.

Later, Rob


------------------
no Explorers, but plenty of Fords:
'82 Mustang GT 351W
'82 F250 351W
'91 Mustang LX 5.0
'78 Mustang II pro street