HHO: Is it alchemy? Or will it improve gas mileage on a ’99 4.0 SOHC Explorer?

[Cabrera]

What did you wire it to? Im guessing something that goes on and off with the ignition. I have a cell that i just got hooked up but cant find anything that goes on and off with the ignition.

Sadly Aldive has passed away so I will answer you. You can connect it to a direct power source via a relay. The relay activation can be connected to the oil pressure sensor which is only on with the engine on.

 

[AlsExplord]

Cabrera, i did not read through all of the pages on this, but have you or anyone else try Bob Boyce's design? I am about to embark on this after I get my ethanol conversion done.

 

[Cabrera]

My final analysis is this.

Yes there is a considerable gas saving benefit to running an HHO system, unfortunately on today's cars (OBD2) it's more trouble than it's worth in both cost & maintenance.
If you are installing an HHO system on an older vehicle, especially a pre computer car, this is perfect & will give you substantial trouble free gas mileage increases. This is due no not requiring to "fool" the CPU, tweak the O2 sensors etc. It's a real PITA to keep tweaking it.

As of this writing I have removed the system from my 2002 Explorer & installed it on my 1974 Beetle.

I am working on a system for an 80 Honda CB900 using TEGs to power the generator since motorcycle charging systems & batteries are substantially weaker than cars.

I have had several years of experimentation & trial. So this is not a theoretical observation & conclusion, but and actual one.

 

[2000StreetRod]

thanks for the results

Thank you for posting the conclusion associated with all of your research and implementation effort. I've pretty much decided that a custom tune (leaner A/F ratio than 14.7:1) is the way I would attempt to gain better fuel economy. Unfortunately, that might result in an increase in nitrous oxide emissions unless I increase the capacity of my catalytic converters.

 

[fr0st m0nkey]

Bump. Lots of advances have been made with HHO recently, is anyone else having positive HHO experiences?

 

[1998rollover]

nitrous oxide emissions

Nitrogen Oxide emissions or NOx. Combines with water vapor in the air to make a weak nitric acid. Same way sulfur dioxide makes a weak sulfuric acid. Together they're "acid rain".

Nitrous Oxide is the laughing gas you spray into the intake to go faster.

 

[gijoecam]

Bump. Lots of advances have been made with HHO recently, is anyone else having positive HHO experiences?

What are these so-called 'advances' of which you speak? Admittedly, I've not kept a close eye on the technology as it's not been picked up by the oem's. But, unless someone has come up with a way to meter and measure the volume of gas being introduced, and developed an ecu program that can compensate for its (questionable) effect on combustion efficiency and compensate the fuel map accordingly, then there haven't been any 'advances'. It's still adding an unknown volume of an unknown gas to the combustion chamber with no way for the ecu to truly compensate for it.

 

[Brad1976]

Just a quick note to say this thread still has life. LOL I have a '02 Eddie Bauer Explorer and after reading the ENTIRE thread, as well as almost all of the "Chapter 10" document I found through this site, I'm going to start doing my own calculations as time permits.... (Combination of three jobs, a 10 year old son I see just a hair under half a month, a gf and an ex-wife, barely leaves me with enough time to pass gas in the morning as it is.....)

But, I'll endeavour to keep you all apprised of my progress along the way.

Oh, and one thing I KNOW I will be doing is a dry cell and not a wet cell...

Cheers!

 

[FIND]

Just a quick note to say this thread still has life. LOL I have a '02 Eddie Bauer Explorer and after reading the ENTIRE thread, as well as almost all of the "Chapter 10" document I found through this site, I'm going to start doing my own calculations as time permits.... (Combination of three jobs, a 10 year old son I see just a hair under half a month, a gf and an ex-wife, barely leaves me with enough time to pass gas in the morning as it is.....)

But, I'll endeavour to keep you all apprised of my progress along the way.

Oh, and one thing I KNOW I will be doing is a dry cell and not a wet cell...

Cheers!

Save your time and money for something worthwhile.

I don't get why people don't understand that HHO doesn't increase fuel economy. Petroleum is a hydrocarbon. In other words, it is made up primarily of hydrogen and carbon, and it was created from decaying matter, plants, sunlight, and millions of years of pressure and other such things to facilitate the bonding of those atoms into these energetic molecule chains. The energy to make petroleum is free, we already have petroleum.

When you split water into HHO, you are breaking a very stable chemical bond. This takes energy. You extract energy from the combustion of the HHO, which is basically a chemical reaction that forms the original chemical bond. You cannot get more energy out of that system than you had originally put in. This is a basic law of thermodynamics. Hell, even when you burn that hydrogen, you can only recover ~30% of the combustion energy in the form of mechanical energy, so the process is woefully inefficient anyway.

Really, people have been making HHO since 1789. The technology of it hasn't changed since then. You add electrodes to water and pass a DC current through it and it separates into hydrogen and oxygen. There is no magic here, no nothing.

To make matters worse, hydrogen is less energy dense than gasoline anyway. Basically all one does when they are running HHO is injecting a less energy dense fuel into a mixture so they can reduce the amount of petroleum they are using.... BUT... They could accomplish the same thing by just making adjustments to their engine and injecting hot air instead of cool air, and there wouldn't be the loss of energy that is used to inefficiently make hydrogen. There is a reason OEMs don't use this type of thing. Because it doesn't work. It only seems like it works to some people because they either, A: Don't want to admit they wasted their time and money, or B: Are confused about what is really happening in their engine. You can do the same thing more efficiently any day of the week. The only way to make running HHO into a cost effective operation that is more efficient than basic tuning and minor tweaks to your engine is to generate your HHO using solar panels on your roof.

And no, this is not some oil company conspiracy or anything else like that. We get tons of government grants, grants from private industries, even grants from oil companies to study alternative energy or engine efficiency. You know how many millions of dollars are spent on every tenth of a mile per gallon increase manufacturers get out of cars?

Also, just a note. It is WAY easier to run this type of system on a computer controlled car than on a pre-electronic injection car, that is unless you just want to keep your throttle valve on your carb tuned for a super lean mixture all the time to compensate for the brown gas that is flowing only some of the time...

 

[CDW6212R]

Save your time and money for something worthwhile.

I don't get why people don't understand that HHO doesn't increase fuel economy. Petroleum is a hydrocarbon. In other words, it is made up primarily of hydrogen and carbon, and it was created from decaying matter, plants, sunlight, and millions of years of pressure and other such things to facilitate the bonding of those atoms into these energetic molecule chains. The energy to make petroleum is free, we already have petroleum.

When you split water into HHO, you are breaking a very stable chemical bond. This takes energy. You extract energy from the combustion of the HHO, which is basically a chemical reaction that forms the original chemical bond. You cannot get more energy out of that system than you had originally put in. This is a basic law of thermodynamics. Hell, even when you burn that hydrogen, you can only recover ~30% of the combustion energy in the form of mechanical energy, so the process is woefully inefficient anyway.

Really, people have been making HHO since 1789. The technology of it hasn't changed since then. You add electrodes to water and pass a DC current through it and it separates into hydrogen and oxygen. There is no magic here, no nothing.

To make matters worse, hydrogen is less energy dense than gasoline anyway. Basically all one does when they are running HHO is injecting a less energy dense fuel into a mixture so they can reduce the amount of petroleum they are using.... BUT... They could accomplish the same thing by just making adjustments to their engine and injecting hot air instead of cool air, and there wouldn't be the loss of energy that is used to inefficiently make hydrogen. There is a reason OEMs don't use this type of thing. Because it doesn't work. It only seems like it works to some people because they either, A: Don't want to admit they wasted their time and money, or B: Are confused about what is really happening in their engine. You can do the same thing more efficiently any day of the week. The only way to make running HHO into a cost effective operation that is more efficient than basic tuning and minor tweaks to your engine is to generate your HHO using solar panels on your roof.

And no, this is not some oil company conspiracy or anything else like that. We get tons of government grants, grants from private industries, even grants from oil companies to study alternative energy or engine efficiency. You know how many millions of dollars are spent on every tenth of a mile per gallon increase manufacturers get out of cars?

Also, just a note. It is WAY easier to run this type of system on a computer controlled car than on a pre-electronic injection car, that is unless you just want to keep your throttle valve on your carb tuned for a super lean mixture all the time to compensate for the brown gas that is flowing only some of the time...

I agree with all of that except that saying that the HHO is less powerful than gasoline. There isn't enough potential in the hydrogen, but the oxygen has great potential energy. I don't know how one would be able to get more out of the oxygen from the produced HHO gas. That could be the only useful reason to continue working on it.

That this process of what people have done with HHO has been said before and should be heeded. What others have done so far is not going to be helpful to save fuel.

If something more could be done with the oxygen produced, besides what already happens in the engine with normal air and gas, that may be productive.

Chemical engineering pointed out the flaws in these experiments, but maybe the same knowledge could find a process to help with the oxygen. It's dangerous subject, so be careful, whoever may be thinking about this.

 

[FIND]

I was talking about the energy density for combustion... The oxygen just works as an oxidizer for the hydrogen. Hydrocarbon chains like petroleum are more energy dense because of the energy required to form the chain that can be released in the chemical reaction that forms CO2, CO and H20, AKA combustion.

 

[CDW6212R]

Yes, that's the reason that what has been done or proposed cannot work. I'm hoping there may be something you or someone could do with the released oxygen, besides fusion or fission, LOL.

 

[FIND]

Well, the other way to do it is through a hydrogen fuel cell to combine the oxygen and hydrogen, and that is a MUCH more efficient method of extracting the energy from a chemical reaction forming H2O. Still, there is a lot of energy loss in a closed system where you generate your own HHO, since electrolysis machines of that type are around 50-80% efficient. A good deal of the energy used to generate hydrogen is lost in the form of heat.

 

[Sedition]

Wood gas?

Yeah I think that Wood Gas is a better alternative. With wood gas you don't have to burn any gasoline at all. Now, with some slight modification to your engine and the addition of a furnace on the back of your truck, 2200lbs of wood gets you the same distance as 100 gallons of gasoline. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas

 

[2000StreetRod]

Start with an EFIE

Just a quick note to say this thread still has life. LOL I have a '02 Eddie Bauer Explorer and after reading the ENTIRE thread, as well as almost all of the "Chapter 10" document I found through this site, I'm going to start doing my own calculations as time permits. . .
But, I'll endeavour to keep you all apprised of my progress along the way.

Oh, and one thing I KNOW I will be doing is a dry cell and not a wet cell...

Cheers!

Most HHO experimenters soon learn that some way is needed to defeat the O2 sensor/PCM control of the air/fuel (A/F) ratio. They eventually end up purchasing an electronic fuel injection enhancer (EFIE) that modifies the O2 sensor output before it goes to the PCM. If you're resolved to pursue A/F ratio experimentation and don't want to purchase a custom tune I suggest that you purchase an EFIE first since most of any fuel economy benefits will come from the EFIE instead of the HHO system. You should also purchase some form of exhaust temperature sensor. As you lean the A/F ratio the combustion chamber temperatures will increase. Your calculations should include comparing the cost of prematurely replacing the spark plugs, valves (and possibly the pistons) due to high combustion chamber temperatures vs the savings associated with a modest decrease in fuel expense.

 

[CDW6212R]

True Dale, if a custom tune isn't created to maintain usable lean mixtures, parts lifespans will decrease.

I'd rather optimize the existing systems, and concentrate on new energy/power solutions for new vehicles. I think we've just touched the surface on alternative fuels, hybrid cars etc. There is a lot of experimentation yet to be done to find a more efficient method than current vehicles.

 

[FIND]

The added hydrogen does cool combustion a bit since it burns so cool and is a lot lower energy, so it is possible to go to a much leaner burn when you add it, but still, it isn't very energy efficient when you are generating it. The only way to come out ahead on an HHO system is to run mixtures that are going to shorten the life of engine components, which you could just as easily do without the hydrogen. If you were adding it from a storage tank though, you would see fairly decent fuel savings, but buying or making hydrogen isn't cost effective for this type of application, unless you have something like solar, where you have extra capacity during parts of the day. But, then you run into problems with storage and transportation, especially since hydrogen takes up such large amounts of space for relatively small amounts of gas. That is really the biggest reason you don't see hydrogen much, even for fuel cell vehicles or hydrogen ICE vehicles. It is just not very cheap to store and transport. Otherwise, I could convert my Explorer to run straight hydrogen really easily and still be making about as much power in my 5.0 as one gets from an OHV 4.0 with almost all stock parts aside from the changes I would have to make in the intake, fuel delivery and ecu. The stock cam or the e cam I'm using would be fine on it too, but one would really want a different grind for best results.

 

[tweakedlogic]

It's nearly 5:00 am and I'm about to go to sleep, but I want to clear a few things up about HHO.

When used with hydrocarbon fuel in the combustion process, the hydrogen is not the fuel, the gas or diesel is. The hydroxy gas is a combustion aid. Among other things, it speeds up the burn, and the fuel burns more completely.

the latter is why the o2 sees a lean condition. the computer is programmed that it should see a certain amount of o2 in the exhaust because most combustion chambers can't burn all the fuel and air in the time it takes to complete the power and exhaust stroke. This is why you use an EFIE to alter the o2 sensor reading. One should not alter the o2 signal with out and EGT gauge. You run the risk of melting things. Some also use a MAF enhancer to trick the ECU into thinking it is taking in less air, so it should lower the fuel used.
The former (speeding up the combustion) is why the ignition timing should be changed. Generally about 4 degrees ATDC instead of BTDC.

A good rule of thumb for gasoline engines is 25% of the volume of your engine should be produced per minute for optimum results. So a 4.0 should have a 1 lpm generator. This is why I do not yet have one on my Ex. Previous cells were too small. But I'm working on that now. I'm building a dry cell from 8x8 316 stainless.

Which is something else I wanted to mention. The wet cells (the kind in the jar) are inefficient. You get current leak at the edges of the plates. Along with reducing output, it also drastically increases temperatures. A PWM can help with thermal runaway, but not output. A dry cell is far more efficient. They are not really dry, but the edges are. The plates are stacked with gaskets in between, and holes drilled to allow electrolyte to flow evenly and gas to escape. To reduce current leakage further, the holes on the bottom of the cell alternate sides. A PWM can help here too because peak production happens when the current is first switched on. so a PWM can turn it on and off thousands of times a second.

There is lots of info at hhoforums.com and http://www.gassavers.org.


My point is, all you naysayers... Shut the #### up! This thread could have been half as long if kept your negativity to yourself and did your own research and testing before posting your bullshit. It also would be more informative because people interested in this would not have gotten put off or bored right away.

Mods, sorry I used profanity. Please don't delete my post.

 

[FIND]

But it has been tested... I work with a lot of people on research projects, and the college I work for does a lot of these types of tests. We get grants. Larger colleges do a lot more of it. Even if I were to build a cell, or a dozen other people were to build a cell, and thoroughly test and debunk your claims, you would just say we are doing it wrong. Hence why the HHO forum is full of so much negativity as well. It takes TOO much energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, and you will not recover that energy through combustion, no matter what kind of weird illusions you may have about the combustion process, because an ICE is just not that efficient. The reason you see lean O2 conditions is because you are introducing what is in effect, a vacuum leak, and injecting hydrogen and oxygen through that leak. All of your tuning and EFIE is just to stimulate a lean burn, despite the fact the ECU doesn't want to do so. There are other ways to stimulate a more complete burn of the fuel in your engine, but yes, hydrogen does help with that, because it has a lower combustion energy, and burns much faster than gasoline. But that doesn't change the fact that you are substituting a less energetic fuel for your gasoline.

The reason we "naysayers" post our negativity in here is to inform so that people are not just fooled by silly BS. Perhaps you would like to post some proof instead of bare assertion? As Carl Sagan used to say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You know, that stuff science is made of. There is a reason why NO ONE uses HHO generators outside of private automotive enthusiasts. But, if you prefer, I can refer you to bunches of articles in respectable scientific journals by engineers, chemists, physicists and whatnot on this type of thing, assuming you have a way to access them.

Current leak at the edge of the plates.... yeah... Whomever wrote the article you are quoting that from never took any university level physics classes... The REAL benefit you are getting when going to a dry cell is a heat sink for your hugely inefficient garage built electrolysis generators.

Jet Propulsion Laboratory generated paper that primarily focuses on the use of bottled hydrogen to reduce emissions through ultra-lean burn. There is an efficiency increase, and they do speculate about the use of on-board generators. This paper if from the late 70s. There has been testing done on this before and since. This is not a secret known only to the annointed few of the hypermiler boards. Here they are generating hydrogen from natural gas using far more efficient methods of production than your electrolysis generators, and again finding that hydrogen is awesome stuff to add to an engine to stimulate a very lean burn and reduce emissions and fuel consumption.

NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY AND JUSTIFY IT, YOUR CLAIMS VIOLATE THE FIRST AND SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS. Testing to debunk your claims?

Popular Mechanics]
Consumer Affairs
Popular Mechanics
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Want more? There is tons of it.

 

[tweakedlogic]

So your saying that the HHO generator on my old Celica didn't work even though I went from 22 MPG to 30 when the only change was the generator?