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Love throwing money at parts...and still not "right"

tidmarshsmiths5

Active Member
Joined
April 20, 2015
Messages
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City, State
Greenville, South Carolina
Year, Model & Trim Level
1991 Explorer XLT
Brakes...I've never seen such an issue with brakes in my life.

New rotors, new drums, new shoes, new pads, new MASTER CYLINDER today - I just knew that was it from reading all the posts and searching searching...I should have listened to my brother and bought the power booster while I was at it just to rule that out too!

Brakes do this:
  • Squishy, just don't feel right
  • I can push the pedal to the floor with not a lot of effort - you won't do this on any of my other cars!
  • There is a "kinda slip plop" feel about halfway down to the floor when pushing the brake pedal
  • The brakes do stop the truck just fine; even better if I pump them once or twice...as a matter of fact they feel great after doing this like they should feel (no, there is no air in the lines, no holes in the lines, I have checked every one of them)
  • If I push them too hard (say when someone decides that right on red is a right away) then the rear anti-lock and brake light always comes on
  • I've bled them so much that I should have a PhD in brake bleeding a 91 Explorer (yes, I even bench bled the master cylinder per the instructions) and this thing shoots brake fluid when I bleed them so I know the lines are good.

Thoughts??? I'm about to by-pass that rear ABS unit and replace the power booster - that's the only two things left to do.
 



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You answered your own question. Its the ABS module causing it to do that. Whether its a wheel sensor or something else as the root cause, I cant say. I would just bypass it.
 






You answered your own question. Its the ABS module causing it to do that. Whether its a wheel sensor or something else as the root cause, I cant say. I would just bypass it.

Just for my own sanity, I did the power booster test (again) :mad: and it works fine.

I disconnected the ABS fuse...wonder if that will "by-pass" it. Although, I am not fond of the rear-anti-lock light on, if it means I have better braking that'll be great!

I put it in drive, held the brakes down and floored it...(worried I'd break the tranny or driveshafts but I didn't thankfully)...the brakes hold the truck in place even before disconnecting the fuse.

Does that FUSE power anything else? The manual says no, but the vehicle is 24 years old...and one never knows what could have been wired to it...
 






Unplugging it doesnt fix it if its stuck open or closed..old brake fluid gets water in it causing it to rust in one position. .if the pedal feels like it pulses when the light comes on from slamming on the brakes then its not the abs unit..personally sounds like air in the line.you are bleeding all 4 and starting at the passengers rear correct? ?is fluid coming out the rear like it comes out the front??all the parts in the rear new?are the shoes adjusted tight?? You tried putting the rear up on stand,then putting in gear and slam on the brakes??does it stop the rear tires,does it pulse with abs light??
 






Unplugging it doesnt fix it if its stuck open or closed..old brake fluid gets water in it causing it to rust in one position. .if the pedal feels like it pulses when the light comes on from slamming on the brakes then its not the abs unit..personally sounds like air in the line.you are bleeding all 4 and starting at the passengers rear correct? ?is fluid coming out the rear like it comes out the front??all the parts in the rear new?are the shoes adjusted tight?? You tried putting the rear up on stand,then putting in gear and slam on the brakes??does it stop the rear tires,does it pulse with abs light??
. It has never ever ever ever pulsed.
 






Any of the calipers removed when doing the work? Any chance left and right were switched?

Can't bleed all the air without the bleeder screws up and on top. Surprisingly common mistake.
 






. It has never ever ever ever pulsed.
You should feel it pulse as the abs is activated. .it pulses when the pressure is released letting brakes to alow the tire to stop sliding...

Any of the calipers removed when doing the work? Any chance left and right were switched?

Can't bleed all the air without the bleeder screws up and on top. Surprisingly common mistake.

If seen this before for sure,especially when people do rear disc conversion
 






No chance they were switched; did them one side at a time.
 






No chance they were switched; did them one side at a time.

Jack the rear up on jack stand and slam on the brakes..obviously be safe and dont have anything in front of you.. << disclaimer
 






If air got into the ABS unit, you can't bleed it without a special tool. You have to cause the ABS to engage in order to bleed it. Most dealers don't even have the tool. Often, multiple dealers in an area would share the tool.

Find a dirt or gravel road, get up speed and slam on the brakes (activating the ABS) and come to a stop. Get out, bleed the brakes and repeat. Have no idea how long this method takes.
 






If air got into the ABS unit, you can't bleed it without a special tool. You have to cause the ABS to engage in order to bleed it. Most dealers don't even have the tool. Often, multiple dealers in an area would share the tool.

Find a dirt or gravel road, get up speed and slam on the brakes (activating the ABS) and come to a stop. Get out, bleed the brakes and repeat. Have no idea how long this method takes.

He has a 91..that info is for 94up with 4 wheel abs
 












I had a similar problem with mine. One person here tell me that one of the easiest ways to bleed the rear abs out is to bleed as normal but to take something and tap lightly on the abs module. This may take you a while to get all of the air out of the system. I mean you've tried everything else what can it hurt? Just use something that's kinda firm but not hard like a rubber hammer or a screwdriver handle or whatever. Just tap on the module while bleeding the system and hopefully the air will release itself from the system. This is what I was told by another member. Just passing on what I was told. Bill
 






Take this info at your own risk...

I just looked up the RABS unit for our trucks and it's a VERY simple Kelsey-Hayes RWAL unit with 2 solenoids. The isolation valve is normally open and the dump valve is normally closed. I'd bet that the dump valve isn't closing fully and you're applying pressure to the accumulator.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/elements/abs_rwal_valve.gif

http://www.aa1car.com/library/abs_kelseyhayes_rwal.htm

If it were my car and I was faced with bypassing the RABS unit or trying to fix it... I'd try to fix it. I'd do that by applying battery power to the solenoids to get them to actuate. This would probably be best if you cracked open a bleeder on a rear wheel and then tried to get the fluid flowing through the RABS unit. I'd actuate the dump valve solenoid several times while applying brake pressure.

If you're handy with a multimeter, you can probe for continuity between the 4 wires. 1 should be ground for both solenoids and 2 should power each solenoid and then there's a "valve reset" wire. Not sure what that one does. It shouldn't take too terribly long to find out the ground and then to power the solenoids based on that. If you can't find 2 pairs that have continuity then one of the solenoids is fried and you're best off scrapping that unit.
 






I had a similar problem with mine. One person here tell me that one of the easiest ways to bleed the rear abs out is to bleed as normal but to take something and tap lightly on the abs module. This may take you a while to get all of the air out of the system. I mean you've tried everything else what can it hurt? Just use something that's kinda firm but not hard like a rubber hammer or a screwdriver handle or whatever. Just tap on the module while bleeding the system and hopefully the air will release itself from the system. This is what I was told by another member. Just passing on what I was told. Bill

Works like a charm! JD suggested that to me and it did the trick. I think the OP really needs to spend some concerted efforts bleeding his system and making sure he has clean and fresh brake fluid. For some reason bleeding our brake system can be really difficult when we change MC, boosters and lines. Patience and practice will yield results.
 






Yea have a gut feeling its stuck have open and half closed..sounds like some fluid is making it to the rear but some is going right back to MC,not letting the rear build enough pressure and letting the pedal hit the floor...
 






I had my 93 in the shop to have the timing gasket replaced and I had a new master cylinder put in at the same time now everytime I hit the brakes they work fine til I get to about 10mph then the abs motor kicks on and goes til its stopped so I'm thinking that the shop didn't properly bleed the brakes system out. So now I have to do this method even tho it was done by "professionals"
 






I had my 93 in the shop to have the timing gasket replaced and I had a new master cylinder put in at the same time now everytime I hit the brakes they work fine til I get to about 10mph then the abs motor kicks on and goes til its stopped so I'm thinking that the shop didn't properly bleed the brakes system out. So now I have to do this method even tho it was done by "professionals"

Why wouldn't you just bring it back to the shop?
 






I did and they said that I must have done something to cause the problem because their "mechanic" drove the vehicle once the work was completed and all was well. I further explained to them that this problem had just started a couple days ago so maybe it wasn't doing that when they road tested the vehicle after the work was completed. To top that off they wanted me to leave the SUV there til "they got to it" and wanted me to pay them another $50/hr shop minimum to duplicate and fix the problem due to "an underlying problem/alteration" sounds like they're trying to take me for a ride. I've dealt with them before and have always had a good experience with them but I think they just slapped the master on There and bled the system out and since ot stopped when they hit the brakes they said all is well or their mechanic(they have about 6) just said ###### it because he didn't want to work on it anymore. Either way you cut it in not paying them to fix something that shoulda been fixed properly the first time. But that's me. I'll put it this way when I dropped the SUV off to have it fixed they had 10-12 cars sitting in their shop, 2days later I got a call saying it was fixed. Went in the next day o think I was and they had no cars at all in the shop so I know they have several mechanics working there. I even spoke to the owner and he said "if it would started doing what you're describing a day or so after you picked it up we could road test the vehicle,and if the problem shows itself,I will have the same guy who fixed it look over his work. But since it just started doing this I have to charge you the standard fee plus any other parts that need replaced or look questionable" so I think I'm just going to attempt to do the back road cram the brakes method and bleed them that way.
 



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I did and they said that I must have done something to cause the problem because their "mechanic" drove the vehicle once the work was completed and all was well. I further explained to them that this problem had just started a couple days ago so maybe it wasn't doing that when they road tested the vehicle after the work was completed. To top that off they wanted me to leave the SUV there til "they got to it" and wanted me to pay them another $50/hr shop minimum to duplicate and fix the problem due to "an underlying problem/alteration" sounds like they're trying to take me for a ride. I've dealt with them before and have always had a good experience with them but I think they just slapped the master on There and bled the system out and since ot stopped when they hit the brakes they said all is well or their mechanic(they have about 6) just said ###### it because he didn't want to work on it anymore. Either way you cut it in not paying them to fix something that shoulda been fixed properly the first time. But that's me. I'll put it this way when I dropped the SUV off to have it fixed they had 10-12 cars sitting in their shop, 2days later I got a call saying it was fixed. Went in the next day o think I was and they had no cars at all in the shop so I know they have several mechanics working there. I even spoke to the owner and he said "if it would started doing what you're describing a day or so after you picked it up we could road test the vehicle,and if the problem shows itself,I will have the same guy who fixed it look over his work. But since it just started doing this I have to charge you the standard fee plus any other parts that need replaced or look questionable" so I think I'm just going to attempt to do the back road cram the brakes method and bleed them that way.

How much time has passed from the time you picked it up, until the time it started having problems? If it was a couple of weeks, I'm going to have to side with the mechanic. They have to make money, especially in this day and age. There's a reason I don't work as an auto mechanic.

Air in the system will show itself almost immediately. If the shop said "sure, we can bleed that and have you done in an hour," and then came back saying it needs an ABS sensor or other problem, you would be pissed. If the opposite happened, its a good day. I'm not sure on how it works for independent shops, but a dealership cannot legally release a car with a brake problem, or even a check engine or ABS light on.
 






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