Do you get LPG fuel in the US like us in the UK?

[Betty Boo]

Hi Everyone,

Just wondered if you have LPG (Liquid petroleum gas or Autogas) in the US to run your cars on?

We have had it for a while and its price is about half that of ordinary petrol but you obviously need to get your vehicle converted to run on it- usually it costs from £1,500 to get it done professionally.
My Explorer was converted when I bought it and you don't hardly notice any difference in performance when using it, a slight lack of acceleration but not much. The tank is in the spare wheel well under the boot floor and you really need to had an additive put in with the lpg gas to stop the head getting damaged as i believe that the lpg burns hotter? or something like that, mine has an auto dosing system for flashlube as part of the conversion though so I just have to keep it topped up.

What is LPG?

Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG)

Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) is a natural hydrocarbon fuel made up of propane and butane. It has the special property of becoming liquid when under pressure, and reverting to gases at atmospheric pressure. This means it can be easily and conveniently stored as a liquid – a big advantage over natural gas, which will only turn to liquid at extremely low temperatures. What’s more, LPG is 250 times denser as a liquid than as a gas mix. So, a lot of fuel can be stored in a relatively small space, for use almost anywhere. Have a look at ‘About LPG’ on the LP Gas Association website www.lpga.co.uk for more information on LPG’s chemical make-up and safe handling.

Where does it come from?
About 60% of the world supply of LPG comes from the separation of natural gas products, and 40% is a by-product from the refining of crude oil. In the past, LPG has been considered as waste and flared off; now it is recognised as a major energy source. It is produced in vast quantities (the UK produced 6.8 million tonnes in 2003) and exported over 3 million tonnes. It is particularly abundant in the North Sea’s ‘wet’ crude oil and offers security of fuel supply for many years.

What is it used for?
LPG has several applications: domestic or agricultural heating, when there is no natural gas pipeline nearby; chemical or refinery operations; and vehicle fuel, when it is often referred to as Autogas. If you want to find out more on LPG uses, information is available from the LP Gas Association - see www.lpga.co.uk.





LPG is:

safe

readily available

portable and flexible

efficient and reliable

We can buy it at most petrol stations in the UK and it quite easy to get in Europe as well. It really seems to be the way forward here at the moment and allows us to afford to run our cars as we are now paying approx $9.30 per gallon of standard unleaded petrol!!!

 

[TrondOscar]

I say!

Just what I was about to ask!
I come from Norway, and we have LPG as well. I am going to get mine converted this winter. It´ll cost me approx. GBP 3200 / USD 6300 (34000 NOK, that is!) but with the newest kits you don´t lose any power, and your mpg is supposed to be the same. LPG is about half the price here, like in Britain and most of europe. This, I´m told, is because it is not taxed like petrol is.

The new type of conversion kits don´t have the mixer, which is supposed to be somewhat similar to a carburettor in it´s function. Those could cause some trouble with backfiring and exploding airfilters on some US cars. Not on the Subaru´s boxer engine, they say... Instead the new kits use direct injection into the intake manifolds.

 

[BrooklynBay]

There is no option in the US to convert to LPG. They are pushing hybrid technology, hydrogen, E85, and biodiesel. Do you have any information on the conversion kits? Some commercial vehicles run on LPG or propane.

 

[Willard]

Yea, and the only one that will get us anywhere is hybrid technology, yet they push the other two like it will save the earth

 

['97 V8]

Just what I was about to ask!
I come from Norway, and we have LPG as well. I am going to get mine converted this winter. It´ll cost me approx. GBP 3200 / USD 6300 (34000 NOK, that is!) but with the newest kits you don´t lose any power, and your mpg is supposed to be the same. LPG is about half the price here, like in Britain and most of europe. This, I´m told, is because it is not taxed like petrol is.

The new type of conversion kits don´t have the mixer, which is supposed to be somewhat similar to a carburettor in it´s function. Those could cause some trouble with backfiring and exploding airfilters on some US cars. Not on the Subaru´s boxer engine, they say... Instead the new kits use direct injection into the intake manifolds.

that sounds stupid...have you figured how much gas you could buy with 6300 dollars????? definatly not worth it.

 

[TrondOscar]

that sounds stupid...have you figured how much gas you could buy with 6300 dollars????? definatly not worth it.

Actually, I have. And you are dead wrong. Facts:
-Petrol costs between 12 and 13 Norwegian kroner (NOK), which is $2.20-2.50 or £1.10-1.20. Per LITRE, that is. 1 litre is 0.26 US gallons, so 1g. is just below 4 litres, or 10 spanking bucks, if you will. You probably won't.
-LPG costs between 6 and 7 NOK, half the price.
-I drive between 20 and 25 thousand kilometres per year.
-The damned yankee-SUV slurps up 1,3 litres per metric mile (10km).
-Fuel consumption is not affected by the conversion.
-The engine always starts running on gas if the coolant temperature is below 22C (71,6F). The final fuel cost running on LPG must be modified, depending on driving habits, with +5 to +15 %. I go for 10.

So:
2500 metric miles by 1.3 litres/mile is 3250 litres per year.
In petrol at NOK 13/litre, that is 42250,- ($7900 £4000)
In propane at NOK 7/litre, that is 22750,- ($4250 £2150)
Modified for petrol consumption at startup, that is 25000,- ($4650 £2350) in round figures.

So I save approximately NOK 17000,- on fuel every year. With the cost of the conversion at NOK 34000,- it will have paid for itself in exactly two years.

Also, the conversion adds around NOK 10000,- to the value of the car, plus it doubles the range since i get another 95 litre fuel tank where the spare wheel is supposed to be.

Actually, the only drawback I have figured out so far is that the spare is going bye-bye. But hey, that can be mounted on a hefty looking roof rack or behind the tailgate, right?

Which means the invest

 

[astaroth]

In Estonia we also have LPG.

It's half cheaper as the ordinary petrol. Nowadays it's getting more and more popular. I also have it and it saves money.

little more reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogas

 

[mawrazen]

I would love to do this mod! Propane in the USA Facts.

FAQs about Propane-Powered Fleets


Q. How cost-effective would it be to switch to propane as my fuel source?

Propane operating costs for fleet vehicles range from 5 percent to 30 percent less than conventional or reformulated gasoline. Overall, propane is the least expensive alternative to gasoline.

Q. How does propane affect engine performance?

Fleet operators report horsepower and torque capability roughly comparable to gasoline. Because propane is a less dense fuel than gasoline, power might decrease slightly, but operators rarely notice this loss. Fuel economy on new engines is also comparable to that of gasoline.

Q. Is propane really a safer fuel for the environment?

Tests conducted by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency show that propane vehicles can produce 30 percent to 90 percent less carbon monoxide than gasoline engines and about 50 percent fewer toxics and other smog-producing emissions. Propane is also listed as an approved alternative fuel in the 1990 Clean Air Act and the Energy Policy Act of 1992.

Q. Is refueling difficult with propane?

No. Refueling is simple and quick. Propane's pumping rate, 10 to 12 gallons per minute, is comparable to that of gasoline. This translates into savings in time and money compared with other alternative fuels. Because propane is delivered through a sealed system (thereby protecting the environment), a simple screwed connection is used. Vehicles can be refueled at nearly 10,000 sites across the country.

Q. Is propane safe?

Yes. Propane vehicle tanks are tested to four times the normal operating pressures, and the tanks are 20 times as puncture resistant as gasoline tanks. Propane is nontoxic, nonpoisonous, and has the lowest flammability range of any alternative fuel.

Q. How can I make the switch to propane as an alternative fuel?

Qualified conversion contractors can convert almost any gasoline-powered vehicle to propane. Conversions cost between $2,500 and $3,500 - a cost that would quickly be recovered through lower maintenance and fuel costs associated with using propane. Part of these conversion costs may be deducted from federal taxable income. Also, more automakers are responding to increased demand for alternative-fueled vehicles by manufacturing factory-equipped propane-powered vehicles. For more information on conversions, go to the U.S. Dept. of Energy's Alternative Fuel Data Center Web site.

Q. Is propane widely used?

Yes. Propane has been used as a commercial motor fuel for more than 80 years, and more than 190,000 propane-powered vehicles are in use today in the United States-more than 9 million are in use worldwide. Propane has become the leading alternative fuel in the United States and in the world.

Q. How many vehicles are powered by propane in the U.S.?

According to the Energy Information Administration, there are these many LPG powered vehicles roaming U.S. highways:

2004 194,389 (projected)
2003 190,438
2002 187,680
2001 185,053
2000 181,994
1999 178,610
1998 177,183
1997 175,679
1996 175,585
1995 172,806

Source: Estimated Number of Alternative Fueled Vehicles in Use in the United States, by Fuel, 1995-2004

 

[mawrazen]

$150 DIY Propane conversion. Yes it can be done. Heres a link.

You'll need five major pieces of equipment to convert your car to LP. All are available from most any LP dealer (with a little help from a hardware store on fittings), although you might want to try getting a used tank from one of the large forklift users or any of the businesses listed under "Gas, Liquified Petroleum, Bulk". If necessary, write to National LP Gas Association, 79 West Monroe St., Chicago, III. 60603 for help in locating equipment dealers near you. OK. Here's what you'll need:

1. A FUEL TANK. Use only a regulation motor vehicle LP tank made to ASME, ICC or DOT specifications. Such a container has all the safety features required by law and common sense, comes with a gauge, has terrific rupture resistance and is built to last forever.

2. A CONVERTOR, or "demand regulator" that changes the liquid propane to a gas (using engine heat to prevent freezing) and supplies just as much of the fuel as the power plant demands through its carburetor vacuum. There are a number of good, time-tested convertors on the market (Century, Beam, Impco, etc.). I've been satisfied with the Century in my bus but I've just done a conversion with an Impco that seems even better.

3. A SPUD-IN JET for your engine's carburetor (two if there are two carburetors).

4. TWO HOSES. One (A) to take liquid propane from the fuel tank to the convertor and another (B) to carry vaporized fuel from the convertor to the carburetor. Hose A must be super-duper aircraft quality and you'll probably have to order it to length and diameter specifications (in which case it'll come with fittings on either end). Hose B can be the ordinary rubber variety since it'll contain very little pressure. About 8' of A and 2' of B should do it.

5. FITTINGS AND HARDWARE. This will sound complex but don't panic. To conduct engine heat into and out of your convertor you'll need a foot or so of heater hose and two Y fittings for a water-cooled engine . . . or some 3/8" O.D. (outside diameter) copper tubing and a flare adapter nipple for a VW. A fitting to adapt hose A to the convertor's LP-in port. A brass reducer to step the convertor's vapor output down to standard 5/16" O.D. fuel line size. A standard on-off valve (with suitable fittings) to insert in the gas line. Enough single-strand electrical wire (bell wire) to run from the convertor to the car's dash. A doorbell-type switch for the primer. Waterhose clamps and compression fittings, miscellaneous nuts and bolts and—if desired or needed—plastic fasteners for attaching the hoses to the car and steel braces for mounting the LP tank.

COSTS (roughly)
Standard retail convertor costs average about $55 (the Century G85A) for a VW, $45 (Impco JO) for other engines under 150 HP and $70 (Impco EO) for larger power plants.

Hoses (hose A is expensive, but it doesn't pay to cut corners here) are about $16 and a jet will set you back $1.00, fittings and hardware $6.00 and shipping (if necessary) $3.00.

A new 14-gallon pressure tank costs around $70 but I got mine used for $35 at the first place I asked. Figuring that as average for a do-it-yourself installation, the grand total for a VW conversion comes to $116, other engines under 150 HP add up to $106 and larger power plants tally out to $131.


Heres a link with complete DIY instructions:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Alternative-Energy/1972-05-01/Convert-Your-Car-To-Propane.aspx

 

['97 V8]

what about fuel injected vehicles though?

 

[mawrazen]

I think you would feed it into the vaccum plenum and intake. I was able to Run my truck for 5 min. at idle off a mini propane tank fed trough a vacuum line with the Fuel pump relay removed. Not enough gas for higher rpms though. The tank and regulator started to freeze so I stopped the test.

Yes it does run a fuel injected vehicle. It worked in my test. I just havent purchesed all the proper parts for a full conversion.

If anybody has successfully done this conversion, please tell us how.

 

[Betty Boo]

Hi all,

I forgot to say in my original post that in the UK most insurance companies want to see a certificate of professional installation/safety & registration number before being happy to insure the vehicle.
Having no place to keep the spare wheel is a pain but I carry a can of inflator stuff/foam and if its major I will call out the breakdown company as lets face it I probably wouldn't be able to change the wheel on my own anyway even though I carry a full toolkit!
The car always starts on petrol(gas) then can be switched to auto gas for the rest of the journey.

Hybrid cars here like the Toyota Prius are complete & utter pants and are NOT the way forward, they look hideous & only old people drive them and the batteries cannot be recycled properly which defeats the "Green" reason for building the things and they are extortionately expensive so no normal person could afford one even if they didn't care about their streetcred!!

http://www.fquick.com/videos/Top_Gear_Prius_Review/3746 ( This is Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson's opinion on it!! Please don't take it seriously!)

In London cars are exempt from the congestion charge if they are hybrid or LPG converted so that's another reason why LPG is so popular but mainly cos the Government doen't tax it as much as petrol.
Our fuel costs are extortionate as are Norway so to afford to run large engined cars we have to look at alternatives.

Try this site about DIY kits:
http://www.gordonfinlay-lpgconversions.co.uk/lpg_diy_kit.html

 

[Thomas_1]

I have Lp on my Clark forklift, does that count! Just kidding but it does bring up the question about the exhaust fumes. On the forklift if this is the same type of LPG the exhaust smell is terrible. Would it be the same on a vehicle?

 

[BrooklynBay]

I was experimenting with using propane a couple of years ago, but I had some problems. It would only start with gasoline, then if I would switch it over while it's already running, it would run rough, sputter, back fire, then stall. It would only idle, and stall as soon as I would step on the accelerator pedal. I shut the fuel pump off, and opened the valve on the propane tank which was connected to the fuel port.

 

[E.B. Cornburner]

Years ago, propane conversion kits were all over the place. I even recall one installed on a Buick LeSabre, and it basically just had a simple carburetor/regulator that clamped on to the throttle body, and then the gasoline fuel injectors were simply disconnected.

To the best of my research, there are no kits offered today that are road legal. The only ones I found were for off-road use only. The rockcrawlers like it because there's no chance of fuel slosh. It'll work upside down in theory.

Probably another idea that got squashed by Big Oil and the EPA. After all, a fuel that burns so clean it can be used indoors certainly can't meet emissions regulations, right? This country is so counter-productive in these ways it's just sickening.

 

[E.B. Cornburner]

I have Lp on my Clark forklift, does that count! Just kidding but it does bring up the question about the exhaust fumes. On the forklift if this is the same type of LPG the exhaust smell is terrible. Would it be the same on a vehicle?

It's stinky, but not toxic. I'm sure a simple catalytic convertor can help with the odor. I actually don't mind that smell. Probably because it's different...Same with the smell of methanol from the race cars. That stuff is nasty...Makes your eyes water and nose burn, but the odor isn't all that bad.
My Explorer running E85 smells like booze when it's first started, then after it leans out and the cats light off, it has a very faint vinegar smell to it. The odor when it's cold is quite noticeable though.

 

[Snowy]

Here in Australia Taxi fleets have used LPG forever. The advantages being in a full LPG only conversion (doesn't run on petrol anymore) the performance is the same, fuel consumption, liter for liter, is roughly the same and the price of LPG is about half that of petrol - at this moment average Unleaded petrol price is around $1.33/liter and LPG is $0.62/liter.

You need to run a valve saver lubricant due to higher exhaust temps and from personal experiance, the vehicle can be a ******* to start on frosty mornings. Usually the regulator freezes and the gas flow stops. I used to boil the kettle, make a cup of tea, start car, pour rest of kettle over regulator as soon as it iced up. Drink tea and leave for work. Pain in the bum.

If you run out of fuel you are, as we say here, up **** creek without a paddle.

Long term the LPG car has less engine problems and increased life. Exhaust is cleaner and better for the environment.

Conversion price is an issue but we now get a government subsidy, which meant that every gas certified mechanic put their prices up. It can cost around $4K. I got quoted $1800 about 10 years ago for a 327 Chev. The subsidy is for $1k.

 

[TrondOscar]

You need to run a valve saver lubricant due to higher exhaust temps and from personal experiance, the vehicle can be a ******* to start on frosty mornings. Usually the regulator freezes and the gas flow stops.

If you run out of fuel you are, as we say here, up **** creek without a paddle.

These problems are not as bad with the conversions that are most common in Norway. The system lubricates itself, so you just have to refill the lubricant everytime you service the car. It always starts up on petrol, so frost is no issue. And when you´re out of propane, the system automatically switches to petrol. No **** creek, no need for a paddle.

But you have to live without your spare tire, unless you put it on the roof or something.

 

[Betty Boo]

Hi TrondOscar

The UK has the same LPG system as you do and my car just has to be topped up with Flashlube lubricant every now and again too.

It always starts on Petrol and then switches and auto switches to the other fuel when one runs out so it appears we have a good system as like you say no **** creek &no paddle here either!

I don't carry my spare wheel as the tank is where it should go but I do carry a mini compressor & foam filler kit so I don't get stuck anywhere. If not I just call out the breakdown service!

Glad to hear so many of you can use LPG it just seems like the US is behind Europe for once with this!!

 

[Snowy]

The fuel companies do add something to the LPG but you still should add a valve saver lube. I have since new on all my vehicles (even the ones that don't run LPG) and I think it pays for itself. I have a Subaru Forester now with 215000km on it and it has never been touched other than oil, spark plug and filter changes ( aside from normal replacements like; 1 knock sensor, 1 Ox sensor and 2 timing belts) and has never ever been touched by a Subaru dealer. It runs as good now as the day I bought it, I believe in part due to the use of the very best lubricants and additives, but also in part due to it never having been near a "factory" service outlet. They are criminal with some of their practices.

LPG only conversions were what I was refering to with the start problems. They are not as common as "dual fuel" conversions, but for fleet vehicles they are a simpler solution. The "dual fuel" conversions can leave you with poor performance and fuel consumption with both petrol and LPG due to the compromise in tuning to get both to work together. You can have the vehicle tuned to suit the one you use the most, which leaves it running less than ideal on the other. It's much like life in that it is all about compromise.

I just added a "Flash lube valve saver" to my explorer today. I drilled and tapped a hole in the intake plenum to take the oil feed nipple and mounted the bottle off the side of the plastic radiator reservoir (the unpressurised part next to the windscreen wiper fluid reservoir). Took 5 mins to hook up and works as advertised. It is a much more professional standard unit than something like the "Moreys Upper Cylinder Lube kit".