Flipped keys..Now what?

[Camarofan]

So..I got a set of Cobra R's. I decided, my 2-2.5 inch drop wasn't doing it anymore, and we pulled the truck in, flipped the keys, got everything settled..and now i still want it lower. I tried a local shop and they said they couldn't make custom keys.. I'm too broke to afford front end brackets for coil overs, let alone 2-3-4 link for the rear. What's the safest way to go lower?

How it sits on the Cobras, minus the spacer i need.. What'd give the best? i tested a buddies 1 inch, but i think a 1.25 would give it the wider stance for the rears 1.5 inch.

And how it sits right now..

 

[MAS Tequila]

I used the 2" on mine.

MT

 

[CDW6212R]

Buy new lowering keys for the front, they cost me about $90 long ago. Those will give a lower range of height than the flipped stock keys.

The rear will bottom out a bunch when it gets lowered to about 2" or more. Stiffer 4WD leafs will help with that a lot.

The back end also moves a bunch side to side in hard turns, so keep plenty of clearance for the tires on the inside. I'd like to see someone try a panhard bar to see if it would bind up too much.

 

[Turdle]

I'd say your upper ball joints are maxed out as is.

C notch in rear, custom ( maybe mustang--pinto) suspension in front.

Any lower, safely done, will cost some coin. In fact you are not "safe" now with the front upper ball joint issue you have caused.

 

[swshawaii]

Looks like serious negative camber. Were camber kits installed with an alignment? A LOT more involved than just dropping.

 

[CDW6212R]

It will also need stiffer front springs/bars in front if it gets lower, that will bottom out more often too.

The camber washers are a must, $35, do those always. The BJ's and CV joints sometimes will survive quite a while near the range of travel ends, but it is a gamble. Without proper alignments and spring/shock control, they won't last as long as you'd want.

 

[Camarofan]

A link for the drop keys please?

As for the rear.. I got a 3.5 inch block in it, cut bump stops, and a pair of air shocks. No bangin' unless i'm careless.

I have that 5th shock, but i'm sure it's blown. I got a 'tie bar' off my buddies Talon he couldn't use, i was planning on making it an anti-wrap bar, so it'd also help with the sway.

Turdle-I need new ones anyway. Unless i can get a set of arms that have camber adjustment in them for cheap, i got a pair of Moog one pieces. As well as new Dorman lowers.

As for the alignment, nada..No alignment yet, But when i fix the ball joints i got new Northstar bolts to try and correct as much as i can.

As for rear springs, and front t-bars..I believe the front are B bars, i could be wrong. it sucked getting them low enough to pound the key off. It's a 4wd, so the rear springs are fine until i get 3inch drop springs.

the CV's are flat, looks like less stress than factory, so those should be a-okay.

When i get the funds i have a pair of drop shocks in mind.
I'm on a small budget, but i roll around town seeing slammed cars, and i want to push the boundries as much as i can before i start getting into extreme custom work.

I'd like to keep it 4wd, since South Dakota tends to get hit with snow, so i know i'm at a limit there.

 

[swshawaii]

A link for the drop keys please?

Remember your other lowering thread less than one month ago? See post #2 .
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=431258

IMO moderator Turdle and CDW6212R are Explorer gurus, consider ANY advice given by either of them as fact. GL

 

[vroomzoomboom]

i can say this. more then 2 inches, and your will be banging the bump stops in the back every time you hit a bump. i dropped my sport 2 inches, and put the 4 door leafs in the back, and i bottom out on bumps, and it doesnt sound pretty either. also, if your four wheel drive anything more then 2 and you will wear cv's out. the camber kit is also a must. if your going down a road with a good bumpy spot and your at speed before you know it, its going to go all over the road before you can say **** my pants!

 

[Camarofan]

Remember your other lowering thread less than one month ago? See post #2 .
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=431258

IMO moderator Turdle and CDW6212R are Explorer gurus, consider ANY advice given by either of them as fact. GL

He said $90 so i wasn't too sure if it was the same keys. Thanks.

And i will, but, like i said.. I'm want to go as low as possible, while maintaining usability.. I don't want to go so low i drag the front cross member, or the gas tanks skid plate. But maybe another inch or two. Once i'm done with lowering it, i'll figure out what i need to do to fix the sway bars so they're not useless. I'm currently looking for a pair of upper control arms that have the adjustable camber. I thought i saw a set.

i can say this. more then 2 inches, and your will be banging the bump stops in the back every time you hit a bump. i dropped my sport 2 inches, and put the 4 door leafs in the back, and i bottom out on bumps, and it doesnt sound pretty either. also, if your four wheel drive anything more then 2 and you will wear cv's out. the camber kit is also a must. if your going down a road with a good bumpy spot and your at speed before you know it, its going to go all over the road before you can say **** my pants!

I never had the issue at 2.5 inch blocks.. It never hit the bump stop unless i was careless. The only time i was frame bangin' with the 3.5 blocks was when i cut the bump stops, and ran no air down the street.. and even then, it wasn't much.

As for the camber, yeah.. It's really excessive. Is there a camber kit for the lower control arms? all i could find is for uppers, and i don't think it's enough..

It has quite a bit of bump steer on old rail road tracks, and some major bumps. but i can typically keep it in my lane..

And, wouldn't a flat CV position be better than one at a massive angle?

I can post some pictures tomorrow if it helps.

 

[CDW6212R]

The front camber washers we've mentioned go in place of the stock UCA frame mounts. They provide more camber range. There's nothing for the LCA,s, the adjustment is in the UCA's.

If you look at how the camber adjustment is made, when you get to the UCA bolts, you might be able to modify the frame "pockets" where the mounts are. I didn't need to at all for my Mountaineer, it will go I'd guess 3.5" lower than stock and still align properly(camber washers of course).

I'm not that low, and I go by the frame height, ground to the LCA bolts, centers. I think mine are around 8.5" high(29" tires), and that's lower than most go. My Explorer would not go below about 10.5" on 29.5" tires, and have enough camber on one side, so I settled for that. I think the spindles might vary enough that some trucks will align easily, and others not well at all.

Measure your current height from the LCA front bolts, down. The CV angle is how the axle compares to the inner differential part. That angle is what you'd like to be flat(180). My Mountaineer has been more than most say will survive, and I've never replaced them from going bad. I've had one boot get torn, and chose to replace the other one, and the hub, when I was hunting a rough bearing noise(it turned out to be the driveshaft CV).

 

[Camarofan]

The front camber washers we've mentioned go in place of the stock UCA frame mounts. They provide more camber range. There's nothing for the LCA,s, the adjustment is in the UCA's.

If you look at how the camber adjustment is made, when you get to the UCA bolts, you might be able to modify the frame "pockets" where the mounts are. I didn't need to at all for my Mountaineer, it will go I'd guess 3.5" lower than stock and still align properly(camber washers of course).

I'm not that low, and I go by the frame height, ground to the LCA bolts, centers. I think mine are around 8.5" high(29" tires), and that's lower than most go. My Explorer would not go below about 10.5" on 29.5" tires, and have enough camber on one side, so I settled for that. I think the spindles might vary enough that some trucks will align easily, and others not well at all.

Measure your current height from the LCA front bolts, down. The CV angle is how the axle compares to the inner differential part. That angle is what you'd like to be flat(180). My Mountaineer has been more than most say will survive, and I've never replaced them from going bad. I've had one boot get torn, and chose to replace the other one, and the hub, when I was hunting a rough bearing noise(it turned out to be the driveshaft CV).

That's what i figured, But a shop asked about LCA bolts, i said no. Just uppers. So when i get around to replacing both upper and lower control arms, i'll have them align it. I've been trying to get the Auto-X guys to let me in for an event to see what the limits are, and see how bad of a time i can get, but i doubt i'll get in.

As for the CV, so, if the shalt is parallel with the ground, it's 180, correct?

With Moog uppers, and Dorman lowers, i should be okay on ball joints. I'm hard on the truck, i'm not going to lie. I treat it like it's a sports car, but it takes the abuse with no problem..

Also, is there a kit to run a dual shock setup on the rear?

 

[blakshukvw]

i can say this. more then 2 inches, and your will be banging the bump stops in the back every time you hit a bump. i dropped my sport 2 inches, and put the 4 door leafs in the back, and i bottom out on bumps, and it doesnt sound pretty either. also, if your four wheel drive anything more then 2 and you will wear cv's out. the camber kit is also a must. if your going down a road with a good bumpy spot and your at speed before you know it, its going to go all over the road before you can say **** my pants!

I know this is an old post but I have to ask…how will lowering the front more than 2” damage the cv joints? The axles at stock height run down toward the wheels. Many of us lift these truck 2” increasing that angle. lowering the front will decrease that angle to flat and then will make the axle angled up to the wheel. You’d have to lower the front over 3” for the axle to bind the cv joints.

 

[CDW6212R]

I've had my mercury lowered close to 3" for about 120k miles. I'd say the limit for the CV joints is definitely over 3", and that's low enough that bottoming out becomes common.

 

[blakshukvw]

I've had my mercury lowered close to 3" for about 120k miles. I'd say the limit for the CV joints is definitely over 3", and that's low enough that bottoming out becomes common.

That would make sense to me. Did you remove your keys for 3”? Did you bottom out front or back or both?

 

[CDW6212R]

I had mine there with the original keys, one without the bolt and one about 1/2" threads adjusted against the key. Normally the keys will not match left to ride, the bolt engagement. I changed to lowering keys later, which placed the adjustment bolts both in a better range of adjustment. I have the Explorer Express kit in that truck, which has 2 3/8" rear lowering blocks. So I aimed the front at that level, and ended up with it slightly more than that down.

Note that the trucks vary wildly, the left and right dimensions, fender height etc. None of my other 2nd gen trucks will go down as far as that first one, the camber is off too much with the level that low in front. So if you are serious, install the camber washers and bolts early on, and get it to an alignment shop ASAP to find out how low it can go and still get a good alignment. I don't like the height of my other three trucks compared to the Mercury. My first 98 Limited will be my keeper, I'm not sure how I'm going to get it that low and force the camber to be what it needs to be.

 

[blakshukvw]

I had mine there with the original keys, one without the bolt and one about 1/2" threads adjusted against the key. Normally the keys will not match left to ride, the bolt engagement. I changed to lowering keys later, which placed the adjustment bolts both in a better range of adjustment. I have the Explorer Express kit in that truck, which has 2 3/8" rear lowering blocks. So I aimed the front at that level, and ended up with it slightly more than that down.

Note that the trucks vary wildly, the left and right dimensions, fender height etc. None of my other 2nd gen trucks will go down as far as that first one, the camber is off too much with the level that low in front. So if you are serious, install the camber washers and bolts early on, and get it to an alignment shop ASAP to find out how low it can go and still get a good alignment. I don't like the height of my other three trucks compared to the Mercury. My first 98 Limited will be my keeper, I'm not sure how I'm going to get it that low and force the camber to be what it needs to be.

I already have the camber kits. I have access to an alignment rack anytime too so I’m good there too.

My first X had a soft drivers torsion bar and always required more adjuster. I put lift keys on it and matched them that way. On my nicer 99, when I lifted it the adjuster bolts were exact same before and after, which I was surprised by. My even nicer 96 they match too. I’m gonna be lowering this 96 soon. I’ll look for 2.5” blocks and try to match the front or even give it a little rake. Hopefully I can get the front down enough without keys.

I know you know wheel figments pretty good too. Do you think a 9” wide wheel will fit the front? what offset would it take to run a 9”? If the 9 would be to tough, do you know what the minimum offset could be in an 8”? I’m wanting a wheel with some lip on the outside.

 

[CDW6212R]

I used OEM Cobra 17x8" wheels first on my Mercury. Those are 30mm offsets, and it fit okay, a 1/4" spacer made it better. So for an 8" wheel, I'd call a best offset to be around 24mm. The rear could come out more than the front, but try not to use spacers.

I have some 17x9" wheels that I plan to use in the end, with 275/55/17" tires. These 9" wheels I found that I like a lot, have 16mm offsets, the only choice I found in two years. I fit the wheels without tires, and they are out slightly more than I wanted, but my trucks have no flares. With any flares, the offset in that 15-20mm range could work. I bought used base model front flares to fit my wheels better. The rear may need the fenders to be body worked a bit, to add a little flare to them. That's a very rough guess from one fitting and no tire.

Keep the offset around 20mm or so for a 9" wheel, the clearance at the BJ and stock right two piece UCA can be really tight. The XP8 Explorers had 18x9" wheels, I've been told they were 15mm or 20mm offsets.

 

[blakshukvw]

I used OEM Cobra 17x8" wheels first on my Mercury. Those are 30mm offsets, and it fit okay, a 1/4" spacer made it better. So for an 8" wheel, I'd call a best offset to be around 24mm. The rear could come out more than the front, but try not to use spacers.

I have some 17x9" wheels that I plan to use in the end, with 275/55/17" tires. These 9" wheels I found that I like a lot, have 16mm offsets, the only choice I found in two years. I fit the wheels without tires, and they are out slightly more than I wanted, but my trucks have no flares. With any flares, the offset in that 15-20mm range could work. I bought used base model front flares to fit my wheels better. The rear may need the fenders to be body worked a bit, to add a little flare to them. That's a very rough guess from one fitting and no tire.

Keep the offset around 20mm or so for a 9" wheel, the clearance at the BJ and stock right two piece UCA can be really tight. The XP8 Explorers had 18x9" wheels, I've been told they were 15mm or 20mm offsets.

View attachment 427698 View attachment 427699 View attachment 427700

So with a 20mm on a 9” wide 17, that would be pretty flush it sounds like? I have no flares on this X and don’t want to add any. Or around 24mm on an 8”. Do you think this would all be the same on an 18” wheel? I feel like the 17 is still just a bit to small.

 

[CDW6212R]

I didn't have tires on my 9" wheels when I test fit them, so it's a guess how the tires would be versus the fenders. The tire size will matter too when things get close to rubbing, a 255mm tire will fit easier than a 275mm. The Saleen Explorers had 255/55/18's, which I have on my Mercury now with my odd wheels. The wheels are 35mm offset, 8.5" wide, and I have to use 1/4" spacers. So that makes the effective offset around 29mm, and the 255mm tires clear everything inside well. A 9" wheel would reduce the clearance some, maybe 1/4" inboard.

So that 24mm offset on a 9" wheel might be tight inboard with a 255mm tire. I like a 30" tire, I was wanting an 18x9" wheel but never saw one. I settled with the 29" tire on the 17's, it's a good diameter that isn't too small. I moved from 30.5" 18's to a 30" tire, and finally down to the 29's. I was hesitant to jump all the way to 55 series back in 2006, I tried the 60 series first. I feel no big change with the 55 series, I like that fine for ride quality.

Below is a 265/60/18 tire on the approx 29mm offset 8.5" wheels. Those rubbed the inner fender above the tire, on hard bumps. It barely touched at the back of the fender at full lock. From those figures, offset, wheel width, and tire width, you should be able to guess close to what can fit with 9" wheels.