Windows 8 and MFT??

[VinceL]

Just found this:

http://www.fordinsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?8582-Windows8-to-drive-nextgen-MyFordTouch-DailyTech-com

and this:

http://www.dailytech.com/Windows+8+Customer+Preview+Coming+in+June+Sources+Say+Ford+to+Use+Windows+8+Metro+UI/article24530.htm

 

[cnsheets]

But will this make it into current generations of MFT?

 

[Tongo]

But will this make it into current generations of MFT?

I hope so... if the hardware remains the same in the next-gen MFT systems, there shouldn't be any reason for us not to get it.

If they change up the hardware, we probably won't.

 

[cnsheets]

If they change up the hardware, we probably won't.

Thats my concern, that they make hardware changes for the MY14, use W8 and sweep the rest of us under the rug.

 

[13Sport]

Our hardware should be sufficient... the only real issue with MFT is that the UI is built on Flash Lite.. Everyone wants to blame Microsoft, but their embedded OS is very solid. Can't fix bad software developers.

 

[Tongo]

Our hardware should be sufficient... the only real issue with MFT is that the UI is built on Flash Lite.. Everyone wants to blame Microsoft, but their embedded OS is very solid. Can't fix bad software developers.

I think the current hardware could probably handle it, but if they do bump the hardware, I doubt Ford will put in the effort to write software for both hardware platforms.

Just like a PC, you're car will have hardware drivers that need to be written and maintained. Instead of splitting their development effort to re-write drivers for the Win8 system on two hardware platforms, they likely will put the old platform into maintenance mode (just minor big fixes) and move the bulk of their developer resources into the new hardware platform.

All of that speculation said...they may keep the hardware.

And for the love of all that is holy DO NOT USE FLASH IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM IN THE NEW SOFTWARE!!!

 

[boltsfan17]

Our hardware should be sufficient... the only real issue with MFT is that the UI is built on Flash Lite.. Everyone wants to blame Microsoft, but their embedded OS is very solid. Can't fix bad software developers.

Hopefully the next MFT will be built on HTML5. I read they may use Microsoft Silverlight, but I really hope not. Silverlight is complete junk.

 

[13Sport]

Hopefully the next MFT will be built on HTML5. I read they may use Microsoft Silverlight, but I really hope not. Silverlight is complete junk.

Silverlight isn't junk =P ... HTML5 will likely be fine for most screens, but for mapping/navigation if they move away from flash they will need to move to something that can rely heavily on the GPU and silverlight makes most sense there.

 

[boltsfan17]

Silverlight isn't junk =P ... HTML5 will likely be fine for most screens, but for mapping/navigation if they move away from flash they will need to move to something that can rely heavily on the GPU and silverlight makes most sense there.

I guess we will agree to disagree

I'm not a fan of Silverlight because I think it's just as bad as flash. Maybe not as bad, but not much better. I disagree with your other post as well about Microsoft. The embedded OS is really not very good. MFT has the same issues as PC's, freezing, rebooting, etc. It's the software. Of course that's my opinion and I could be wrong. But you are probably right about bad programming. MFT is made from Windows CE. That software is really outdated. It's the same software that was used on PDA's back in the 90's. The software is also closed source as well, so developers can't customize the system to their needs. I really think Ford needs to ditch Microsoft and build MFT on Linux. Many automakers are leaning away from Microsoft due to all the issues seen with MFT. I had a chance to check out the new Cadillac XTS. Their competitor to MFT, CUE, worked really well during the time I had to play around with it. GM's CUE is made on Linux. It was so much faster and smoother compared to MFT. With Linux being open sourced, we would see updates come out quicker as well. I'm sure Ford has to be paying a ton of money for license fees to Microsoft. Ford would save money using Linux and not have to rely on Microsoft to maintain the software.

On a side note, Microsoft or not, I really wish MFT would work flawlessly. It's a shame Ford is getting knocked in the ratings due to the MFT issues. Ford has been making some really good quality vehicles. I do give credit to Ford for bringing this technology to vehicles. I'm sure one day things will be better, but I guess it's just growing pains with new vehicle technology. Even BMW had growing pains with their system. I'm still very happy with my purchase and returning to having a Ford vehicle. Even with the MFT issues, it's not going to stop me from buying another Ford in the future.

 

[13Sport]

I'm not a fan of Silverlight because I think it's just as bad as flash. Maybe not as bad, but not much better.

Are you saying this from a standpoint of someone who has developed and released applications in both environments? Can you quantify "not much better", in what ways is it not better for you?

I disagree with your other post as well about Microsoft. The embedded OS is really not very good. MFT has the same issues as PC's, freezing, rebooting, etc. It's the software. Of course that's my opinion and I could be wrong. But you are probably right about bad programming. MFT is made from Windows CE. That software is really outdated. It's the same software that was used on PDA's back in the 90's.

The latest version of MFT is using Windows Embedded CE 6.0 R3 ... this is derived from the Windows 7 kernel and codebase, it's nothing like the Windows CE that was found in your old PDA's. It's in no way outdated. The OP is talking about MFT using Windows Auto 8 and the Windows 8 Metro UI, which are derived from the windows 8 code base, and by far not outdated.

The freezing, rebooting, and etc that you refer to are caused by mismanagement of cpu, memory, and drivers. The memory and CPU problems are LIKELY directly related to flash lite, there is a reason that Adobe has stopped production on flash lite and flash mobile.

I have a set top box developed in house running on windows embedded CE 6.0 R3 (same as MFT)... it is used to display a scoreboard for sales offices. It's current uptime is 265 days 4 hours and 33 minutes... the last reboot was for an upgrade of our production code, and for no reason of the OS.

Windows Auto/Windows Embedded CE are SOLID platforms for embedded development, they have decades of production standing. There are millions of devices you likely walk past every day that are running on it, and you wouldn't even know.

The software is also closed source as well, so developers can't customize the system to their needs. I really think Ford needs to ditch Microsoft and build MFT on Linux.

The actual kernel, and source for the OS may be closed, but there is nothing stopping kernel level driver development, or complete customization from Ford's standpoint. This is no more closed source than Windows XP, or Windows 7. There are millions of 100% custom programs, devices with drivers, etc on Windows, where do you assume that an open source kernel like Linux would make things any better? The problems we are experiencing from MFT don't have anything to do w/ the OS.

Many automakers are leaning away from Microsoft due to all the issues seen with MFT.

Can you site a reference for this comment?

It was so much faster and smoother compared to MFT.

Because it doesn't run on flash

With Linux being open sourced, we would see updates come out quicker as well.

What makes you think that linux's open source mantra would have anything to do w/ a third party application's release timeline? This makes no sense at all.

Ford would save money using Linux and not have to rely on Microsoft to maintain the software.

hahahahahaha Ford's not relying on MS to maintain software, they have their own in house development that wrote MFT on FLASH LITE! And when it was originally written it was by a third party company (not MS), and on FLASH LITE... MS has nothing to do with this.

On a side note, Microsoft or not, I really wish MFT would work flawlessly. It's a shame Ford is getting knocked in the ratings due to the MFT issues.

Ford's developers are responsible in whole for MFT and it's failures. Like I said there are millions of devices powered by windows embedded. I have a few dozen here in my office, all of which are exceptional. This coming from a guy who is an Apple fanboy to the bone. If MS was responsible for Ford's lowered ratings, or for the issues w/ MFT, do you think Ford would continue their relationship with MS going forward? Why do other cars with Sync (not MFT) work perfectly? You realize that Sync w/out MFT also runs on Windows Embedded right?


I'm going to make an assumption by your statements that you are not a developer, and specifically not a windows developer. You should soak in some knowledge from someone who is. Flash has been the biggest mistake Ford has made, I know, because I've been down that road before. I've scrapped a project that was in development for 2 years because of many of the same problems we're having with MFT. Inconsistent, unstable, and unbearable at times. Guess what we did with it though We started over in silverlight, it's currently in production, and w/ no issues (at least none related to stability)

 

[boltsfan17]

Are you saying this from a standpoint of someone who has developed and released applications in both environments? Can you quantify "not much better", in what ways is it not better for you?



The latest version of MFT is using Windows Embedded CE 6.0 R3 ... this is derived from the Windows 7 kernel and codebase, it's nothing like the Windows CE that was found in your old PDA's. It's in no way outdated. The OP is talking about MFT using Windows Auto 8 and the Windows 8 Metro UI, which are derived from the windows 8 code base, and by far not outdated.

The freezing, rebooting, and etc that you refer to are caused by mismanagement of cpu, memory, and drivers. The memory and CPU problems are LIKELY directly related to flash lite, there is a reason that Adobe has stopped production on flash lite and flash mobile.

I have a set top box developed in house running on windows embedded CE 6.0 R3 (same as MFT)... it is used to display a scoreboard for sales offices. It's current uptime is 265 days 4 hours and 33 minutes... the last reboot was for an upgrade of our production code, and for no reason of the OS.

Windows Auto/Windows Embedded CE are SOLID platforms for embedded development, they have decades of production standing. There are millions of devices you likely walk past every day that are running on it, and you wouldn't even know.



The actual kernel, and source for the OS may be closed, but there is nothing stopping kernel level driver development, or complete customization from Ford's standpoint. This is no more closed source than Windows XP, or Windows 7. There are millions of 100% custom programs, devices with drivers, etc on Windows, where do you assume that an open source kernel like Linux would make things any better? The problems we are experiencing from MFT don't have anything to do w/ the OS.



Can you site a reference for this comment?




Because it doesn't run on flash



What makes you think that linux's open source mantra would have anything to do w/ a third party application's release timeline? This makes no sense at all.



hahahahahaha Ford's not relying on MS to maintain software, they have their own in house development that wrote MFT on FLASH LITE! And when it was originally written it was by a third party company (not MS), and on FLASH LITE... MS has nothing to do with this.



Ford's developers are responsible in whole for MFT and it's failures. Like I said there are millions of devices powered by windows embedded. I have a few dozen here in my office, all of which are exceptional. This coming from a guy who is an Apple fanboy to the bone. If MS was responsible for Ford's lowered ratings, or for the issues w/ MFT, do you think Ford would continue their relationship with MS going forward? Why do other cars with Sync (not MFT) work perfectly? You realize that Sync w/out MFT also runs on Windows Embedded right?


I'm going to make an assumption by your statements that you are not a developer, and specifically not a windows developer. You should soak in some knowledge from someone who is. Flash has been the biggest mistake Ford has made, I know, because I've been down that road before. I've scrapped a project that was in development for 2 years because of many of the same problems we're having with MFT. Inconsistent, unstable, and unbearable at times. Guess what we did with it though We started over in silverlight, it's currently in production, and w/ no issues (at least none related to stability)

I don't want to stray off topic anymore, but my opinion is shared by many regarding Silverlight.

From my understanding, MFT is built on a previous generation of Microsoft Auto, which is built on top of Windows CE. That's why I said the software is outdated. I don't know if that last big update is built on Windows Embedded Automotive 7.

Actually you are wrong about Ford. A company named BSquare wrote the software for MFT. And yes, Ford is receiving assistance from Microsoft. Microsoft, Ford, and BSquare have been working together to fix the issues on MFT. I did read a report that BSquare was out and Ford was rewriting the software in house with a lot of help from Microsoft. Since my Explorer is the first vehicle I've purchased from Ford in a while, I'm not familiar with the whole history regarding MFT. With that said, I have no idea what's current based on the information I've seen.

I do agree with you. The biggest issue with MFT is the use of Flash. Hopefully with Windows 8, the problems we see today will be gone in the next generation of MFT.

I did find an article about Linux and the automakers. I read an article in the newspaper so this one I found online is really similar.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...on-linux-for-future-infotainment-systems.html

Your assumptions are wrong btw. I did want to be a software developer at one time, but I ended up down a different career path. I do have some experience, but I'm sure you know way more then me.

 

[13Sport]

From my understanding, MFT is built on a previous generation of Microsoft Auto, which is built on top of Windows CE.

Correct Windows Embedded CE 6.0R3 (which is not what is in PDA's in the 90's it was released in 2009)

Actually you are wrong about Ford. A company named BSquare wrote the software for MFT.

Actually I wasn't wrong.. per my last post
"And when it was originally written it was by a third party company (not MS)"

I do agree with you. The biggest issue with MFT is the use of Flash. Hopefully with Windows 8, the problems we see today will be gone in the next generation of MFT.

SEE!!! We do agree

I did find an article about Linux and the automakers. I read an article in the newspaper so this one I found online is really similar.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...on-linux-for-future-infotainment-systems.html

This is a good article, however it's giving some unrealistic information, and even the headline is false. In the article they admit that only the CUE is currently taking advantage of linux (though I know of a couple of aftermarket systems that are using both windows and linux). They also go on about open source allowing for developers to quickly supply updates. There is no auto manufacturer that is going to open up the hardware for ad-hoc (homebrew) development. It would be a HUGE safety concern if I could get in there and dick around on my own and rewrite drivers, screens, etc. Just because the OS is open source that doesn't lead to any decreased time for updates to the manufacturers independent software running on the OS. I tried to allude to that previously. Open source doesn't work for embedded Auto systems. So even using linux, you won't have free access to the source code of the manufacturers software.

Your assumptions are wrong btw. I did want to be a software developer at one time, but I ended up down a different career path. I do have some experience, but I'm sure you know way more then me.

I hope your career path was a prosperous and lucrative one.. at the very least prosperous. My assumption was not wrong though, you "wanted to be" a software developer, you are not one however.

Back to the OP's links... I think metro-UI would be great for in-vehicle entertainment.. I could see Ford grabbing ideas from metro for MFT, but I don't think you'll see a truly MetroUI My Ford Touch anytime soon The hope for all of us is something more stable, consistent, and App Link and/or the ability to develop native apps for MFT sometime soon.

 

[boltsfan17]

Correct Windows Embedded CE 6.0R3 (which is not what is in PDA's in the 90's it was released in 2009)



Actually I wasn't wrong.. per my last post
"And when it was originally written it was by a third party company (not MS)"



SEE!!! We do agree



http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...on-linux-for-future-infotainment-systems.html

This is a good article, however it's giving some unrealistic information, and even the headline is false. In the article they admit that only the CUE is currently taking advantage of linux (though I know of a couple of aftermarket systems that are using both windows and linux). They also go on about open source allowing for developers to quickly supply updates. There is no auto manufacturer that is going to open up the hardware for ad-hoc (homebrew) development. It would be a HUGE safety concern if I could get in there and dick around on my own and rewrite drivers, screens, etc. Just because the OS is open source that doesn't lead to any decreased time for updates to the manufacturers independent software running on the OS. I tried to allude to that previously. Open source doesn't work for embedded Auto systems. So even using linux, you won't have free access to the source code of the manufacturers software.



I hope your career path was a prosperous and lucrative one.. at the very least prosperous. My assumption was not wrong though, you "wanted to be" a software developer, you are not one however.

Back to the OP's links... I think metro-UI would be great for in-vehicle entertainment.. I could see Ford grabbing ideas from metro for MFT, but I don't think you'll see a truly MetroUI My Ford Touch anytime soon The hope for all of us is something more stable, consistent, and App Link and/or the ability to develop native apps for MFT sometime soon.

I guess I wasn't thinking about open/closed source on terms with the embedded Auto systems. Thinking about it more, that would be a huge safety issue. Imagine if it were open source, we probably would see viruses that could crash the system.

That was a good article. The one I read in the local newspaper touched more on the companies that will be using Linux in Europe.

Since you're a developer, are you familiar with BMW's iDrive system? I believe it's built on Windows CE but that's all I know about it. Occasionally I'll swap cars with a buddy of mine who drives a BMW. The system seems to work really well with no glitches from my experience. He hasn't had any issues either. I know BMW had some bumps in the road when it first came out, but I think it's fine now as far as I'm aware. I'm curious if that was built with Flash Lite or something else? Maybe you can chime in on that.

Ford using a customized Metro UI for the next generation of MFT sounds promising. I can't imagine Ford continuing to use Flash Lite, especially how it's not being supported anymore. All we need is a stable MFT, then add things like App Link and native Apps.

 

[13Sport]

Since you're a developer, are you familiar with BMW's iDrive system? I believe it's built on Windows CE but that's all I know about it.

I believe iDrive is running on QNX (RIM's os that is in the playbook)