2016 Explorer (Limited) 3.5L NA Timing Chain/Phasers - not done with Ford parts

[Shep4]

Okay, this is a long post (hopefully not). I have a 2016 Explorer Limited with 3.5L non-turbo/non-ecoboost engine with almost 190k miles on it.

I ALWAYS service this car and always address issues when they arrive.

The issue I'm having now is that I had the startup rattle which two shops diagnosed as phaser issue. I then had the 2nd shop do the following:

1) Replace the phasers
2) Replace timing chain, tensioners, guides, VVT solenoids, etc...
3) While they were at it, I had them put a new water pump in since the last one failed at 90k miles (pre-emptive maintenance since they were already in there)

I did ask that they use Motorcraft/Ford parts and they assured me they would.

I picked up the car and it runs worse than before. Now, instead of it rattling at startup it rattles all the time (between 1000-1500 rpms is most noticeable to me in the cabin but a 3rd shop says it is all the time - I just can't hear it due to engine/road noise)

Took it back to the shop that performed the work and they swear they did everything right. Even showed me an open engine explaining why it was something ELSE wrong with the engine (even though the sound is coming from the "front" where the timing components are) and that extra detective work would cost me major $$$ to find out.

I had them redo the timing chain/phaser job and asked twice if they were going to use Motorcraft (MC)/Ford parts. Assured me that they were going to.

After the 2nd time, the problem is STILL there.

So I took it to a 4th shop. They asked if the original shop used MC/Ford parts because they had had issues with the other parts manufacturers in the past. Said that sometimes the "O ring"(?) doesn't fit quite right like it would if it were a Ford part. I said I believed it was MC/Ford parts. They asked me for a parts list of what was installed. I gave it to them, and they told me that the parts that were installed were in fact NOT MC/Ford parts.

I know another mechanic who has also stated the job should've been done with MC/Ford parts

So what/who to believe?

Have you had issues with doing this job in the past with non-MC/Ford parts? What is my recourse here? The original shop is most likely going to fold up their tent and tell me there's nothing wrong with the parts even though they told me they were going to use MC/Ford parts.

Am I left here, holding the bag, and paying another shop to do the same work again with MC/Ford parts (basically paying double)?

What would you do in my situation?

 

[Rick]

Do you have the part numbers on your invoice? If so go to a Ford dealer and get a list of the correct part numbers and compare.

 

[Shep4]

Do you have the part numbers on your invoice? If so go to a Ford dealer and get a list of the correct part numbers and compare.

Yup. I found out they used a Coynes kit and also some aftermarket stuff that was made in China. Another shop has told me that they have had problems with these kits in the past and why they don't use them anymore on this particular job and only use MC/ford parts

 

[ExPlat]

Yup. I found out they used a Coynes kit and also some aftermarket stuff that was made in China. Another shop has told me that they have had problems with these kits in the past and why they don't use them anymore on this particular job and only use MC/ford parts

You might want to review some of the following videos to see 'why' using only Ford replacement parts is recommended, especially the Phasers.

I feel your pain about 'what to do now' though. I really don't know how to fix this situation other than throwing more money at an attorney or another reliable repair shop who will fix this mess the right way.

 

[FordFlintrock]

I picked up the car and it runs worse than before. Now, instead of it rattling at startup it rattles all the time (between 1000-1500 rpms is most noticeable to me in the cabin but a 3rd shop says it is all the time - I just can't hear it due to engine/road noise)

If the noise is more like a slight knocking sound it could be the crankshaft bolt not tightened correctly causing the chain sprocket to flop around. Give them a call and ask how they tightened and what torque procedure they used.

 

[Shep4]

If the noise is more like a slight knocking sound it could be the crankshaft bolt not tightened correctly causing the chain sprocket to flop around. Give them a call and ask how they tightened and what torque procedure they used.

Well, I got another shop to fix it and I can say that the Explorer hasn't run this smoothly since it was fairly new.

Here's what the other shop found about the first shop that did it;

1) WE FOUND THAT THE ONE OF THE TWO TIMING CHAIN TENSIONER GUIDE RAILS WAS MISSING THE BOLT THAT HOLDS IT IS AND WAS FLAPPING AROUND AND NOT KEEPING THE CHAIN TIGHT WHICH CAUSED IT TO STRETCH.

2) ALSO THE DRAIN PLUG IS STRIPPED AND PULLED A COUPLE THREADS OUT OF THE OIL PAN,

3) THE HARMONIC BALANCER BOLT WAS LEFT LOOSE AND WE COULD TURN IT BACK AND FORTH BY HAND WITH A SOCKET ON IT AND THE DOWEL PIN THAT GOES INTO THE CRANKSHAFT IS BADLY DAMAGED AND ALSO DAMAGED THE GEAR WHERE THE PIN SITS IN IT AS WELL.

4) THE FRONT VALVE COVER IS LEAKING AT THE SEALS WHERE THE SOLENOIDS GO INTO IT AND THERE IS SOME PLASTIC CRACKED OFF OF IT AND THE SEALS ARE DAMAGED CAUSING OIL TO LEAK. WE REPLACED THE ENTIRE VALVE COVER GASKET SET AND SEALS AND THERE ARE NO FURTHER OIL LEAKS AT THIS TIME.

They said the harmonic balancer loose is what caused the dowel pin and gear to get damaged. I had to replace both of those things in addition toi them doing the job again (with Ford parts).

 

[FordFlintrock]

WOW. That is some of the worst workmanship/competence I have seen but is sadly becoming common from this generation who do not care and see nothing wrong when everyone gets a trophy. That business should be limited to checking and adding washer fluid with a wheel barrow repair thrown in here and there. Even the VVT solenoid seals need to be be OEM or they will likely leak, damage aside.
Glad you found a reputable repair facility and all is good with your vehicle now.

 

[Shep4]

WOW. That is some of the worst workmanship/competence I have seen but is sadly becoming common from this generation who do not care and see nothing wrong when everyone gets a trophy. That business should be limited to checking and adding washer fluid with a wheel barrow repair thrown in here and there. Even the VVT solenoid seals need to be be OEM or they will likely leak, damage aside.
Glad you found a reputable repair facility and all is good with your vehicle now.

Thanks. Now I'm going back to the first shop to demand my $ back. I have zero doubt they are gonna drag their feet on this to give it back to me.

 

[Shep4]

WOW. That is some of the worst workmanship/competence I have seen but is sadly becoming common from this generation who do not care and see nothing wrong when everyone gets a trophy. That business should be limited to checking and adding washer fluid with a wheel barrow repair thrown in here and there. Even the VVT solenoid seals need to be be OEM or they will likely leak, damage aside.
Glad you found a reputable repair facility and all is good with your vehicle now.

I talked to them today to try to get the $4700 I paid them back. They said "well we don't know why it would've done that", etc... etc... I pointed out the bolt missing in the guide as well as the loose harmonic balancer and the damaged dowel pin. Told them I'd give them the day to respond on how they were gonna make it right. But told them they had TWO bites at the apple so I went with another shop and they fixed the issue doing the same job. And I mentioned that they (1st shop) didn't use Ford parts as we discussed. Told them they usually do good work but this one wasn't one of them (trying to grease the wheels so they realize I'm not a jerk).

Gonna contact them tomorrow via phone to see what they say. Really hope they just admit they made a mistake and reimburse me and I don't have to sue them.

 

[FordFlintrock]

With your good documentation and if paid by credit card you might be able to dispute the charges with the credit card provider. If they do not timely reply to the dispute with details you will not have to pay. Call the card provider and investigate that route.

 

[Shep4]

With your good documentation and if paid by credit card you might be able to dispute the charges with the credit card provider. If they do not timely reply to the dispute with details you will not have to pay. Call the card provider and investigate that route.

This is the response I received:\. Bear in mind, the vehicle had only been driven about 800 miles after their second bite at the apple in trying to fix it. These pics could have been from the first attempt.

If the timing guide rails were missing bolts and flapping as stated, the vehicle would jump time due to lack of tension on the chains, this would cause numerous timing and engine components to fail immediately. The guides would crack or snap due to being a plastic component, valves would bend in the engine likely causing piston failure within a very short period. You have driven the vehicle 3971 miles since the repairs on 02/13/24 and none of these issues have occurred. This type of mistake would have rendered the vehicle inoperable immediately. If the harmonic balancer was installed incorrectly using the installer kit provided it would cause the serpentine belt to squeak, rip/tear, or fall off, none of which has occurred. The dowel pin was not replaced during the timing repair as it is not a necessary component for this repair. It is most likely original to the vehicle but did not appear damaged. Per manufacturer specifications these pins do not come with the timing kits, they are purchased and replaced as a separate repair. None of the issues listed above arose during our start-ups, test drives, or when you left with the vehicle. Per your request, we have taken apart the timing on 2 separate occasions to check our work free of charge, and to make sure these components had not failed. We are certain that the mistakes listed in your email are false claims. The engine would be damaged beyond repair after this amount of time and mileage. It is very possible the valve cover gasket and seals are worn or broken due to multiple instances of removal. If you provide an Auto Repair Shop’s Invoice for the valve cover gasket being replaced, we are willing to reimburse you for the valve cover gasket repair only. Pictures of the completed work with all bolts properly installed have been attached.

 

[Odrapnew]

Unfortunately with those pictures, you can't see where the bolts would be on the guides.
Do they have any better pictures showing the bolts in place?

 

[Shep4]

Unfortunately with those pictures, you can't see where the bolts would be on the guides.
Do they have any better pictures showing the bolts in place?

View attachment 453776

View attachment 453777

Nope. Those were the only pics they had. And you can see from my pics I posted, that there is no indicator that a bolt was put in place on one of them because it would've left a tell tale ring when torqued down.

These two pics are from the parts the 2nd shop removed. You can see where one has the ring where it was installed (the one below) and the other is completely "clean".

The first shop is refusing to reimburse me and saying the 2nd shop is lying about it and also claims these "are just parts on a table"

 

[Odrapnew]

Ah, yes. Now I see what they were saying (no indentation).
You should tell the 'bad' shop their pictures do not show the bolts installed and ask for some with date stamps (not screenshots).

EDIT: I think the engine would still run and not jump time with that bolt missing. That guide has a groove for the chain, so it may not slip out of place. The tensioners would still hold chain tension. That could also make sense why it was rattling.

Do you have the invoice from the original shop regarding Ford parts used? Do you have the old parts that were supposedly non-Ford parts?
Would the last shop be a witness in court for you if you had to go that route?

Man, tough spot to be in.

 

[Shep4]

Ah, yes. Now I see what they were saying (no indentation).
You should tell the 'bad' shop their pictures do not show the bolts installed and ask for some with date stamps (not screenshots).

EDIT: I think the engine would still run and not jump time with that bolt missing. That guide has a groove for the chain, so it may not slip out of place. The tensioners would still hold chain tension. That could also make sense why it was rattling.

Do you have the invoice from the original shop regarding Ford parts used? Do you have the old parts that were supposedly non-Ford parts?
Would the last shop be a witness in court for you if you had to go that route?

Man, tough spot to be in.

Yes, I do have the original invoice from the 1st shop. In fact, I showed it to the 2nd shop and before they even took it apart they knew it wasn't done with Ford parts (based upon the part # on the invoice from Advance Auto). It was a Cloyes kit with Dorman phasers.

I have the old parts in a box somewhere in my garage.

The owner of the 2nd shop that did things correctly said "we don't get involved" (I assume it meant "we don't go to be witnesses in court" but I think I could get him to fill out an affidavit that would help), BUT... he did offer to have a 3-way call with the owner of the 1st shop. I told her this in a call to her this afternoon and she said she'd do the call but her decision is final (no reimbursement). I did tell her I was trying to do this amiably and resolve this without going further but she wouldn't budge. I did get her to agree to the call (owner of 2nd shop was headed out on vacation for 2 weeks so will have to wait to do the call until mid-July), so I'm hoping her talking to him will help her understand that she has a ton of risk here. I mentioned to her that I didn't want to take this any further (meaning legal) but I would if I needed to and I wouldn't just go to small claims (since all I'm asking for is reimbursement - I could add rental car $ I spent, the Lyft/Uber rides I had to pay for, PLUS attorney's fees) and since I'm going to ask for attorney's fees that it could possible double or triple her cost and this was the best way to simply reimburse me and we part as friends.

I hate being that guy, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable here to expect the work to be performed correctly the first time. And if you have multiple bites at the apple and STILL can't fix the problem, I don't expect to be left holding the bag.