Powerdyne BD-11a versus Powerdyne XB-1A dyno numbers - need some input | Page 4 | Ford Explorer Forums

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Powerdyne BD-11a versus Powerdyne XB-1A dyno numbers - need some input

The fuel was lean on two runs at 3,000rpm. 3,000 is the point at which boost is high enough to need more fuel and less timing. 16.28 is way lean!!! 13.72 is lean! 12.71 sounds a bit lean at 3lbs of boost even with your intercooler. It should get richer as boost builds. It is amazing to see the tuning to me, boost jumps to 2.84lbs and the torque jumped when the fuel got better.
 



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Received these observations from a user at corral

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We had another dyno session with Big White Ford Explorer and the XB-1a on November 30th. We did a few dyno pulls again with the 2.7" pulley and improved standoff pulley on the bottom side of the SC belt. You can see the last pull as runfile 2 in the sheet above. This time we were datalogging and we saw the MAF counts plateauing when it was expected to see them keep rising. We checked in the previous runs to see if there was any possible restrictions before the blower (airbox/filter) and there was nothing noted. What the MAF counts showed when put with the dyno data from runs 0-2 (only run 2 is shown above) is there was definately some belt slip happening - more so from 4500 rpm and above. On run two we saw a max boost level of 6.01 lbs at 5.64k rpm

The guys at Stage and I then decided to change the 2.7 (2.65 actual?) pulley to the 2.8 (2.86 actual) and try it again. Surprise (see runfile 3 above) - we saw a larger max HP number and boost number (almost 8 lbs) with the larger 2.8 pulley which means that there was alot less belt slip. So it seems pretty clear that belt slip is the main issue. If the 2.7 pulley had not been slipping, I suspect we would have seen probably mid 320's or higher on HP, perhaps 360's on torque and probably more than 9 or 10 lbs of boost. The maf counts in the datalog continued to rise this time as expected too. You can see that at 4700 RPM and above, with the 2.8 pulley, HP continued to rise and the 2.7 pulley, HP was dropping (belt slip)

Unfortunately after that last dyno run, I finally took the truck out on the road for a few miles (about 15 total) of actual driving - shifting at a max of 5400rpm (AWD 4R70W Transmission with stock 2nd Gen Explorer Torque Converter). The blower started making some bad noise and it appeared the the high speed bearing in the XB-1a decided to have some issues.




here is what the blower sounded like before this issue


The blower only had the previous dyno pulls on it and no driving. The blower had never been spun higher than the recommended 50k rpm. It was sent back to the builder and the builder confirmed

"
The inside high speed bearing was damaged a little. Probably overheated or lacked enough lubrication for some reason...
Multiple Dyno runs are some of the harshest conditions any engine parts will see !

We will replace it this time for no charge, tho
"

From my visual inspection prior to sending it back - the impeller and surround area seemed fine with no damage. Seems as if only the high speed bearing is what had a problem.

I spoke to the guys at Stage and we intend to check the oil pressure going into the blower after it comes back. I am asking the builder what the oil pressure spec for the XB-1A should be at if this is what caused the problem. Wondering if the oil pump in the Explorer 302 puts out different pressure from that in the SN95 or Fox Mustang 302?? As far as overheating, again the blower was never spun beyond 50K and not sure what else could have caused the issue. We are still having some discussions about it. I am waiting on photos of the bearing and hope to confirm what the specification of the high speed bearing is installed in this new production XB-1A blower.

Once the blower comes back, we will stay (for now) with the 2.8 pulley and work on increasing the crank pulley from 6.5 to hopefully 8 inches which would allow us to run the 2.8 pulley or larger to further eliminate the belt slip and hopefully see a better result with this blower.
 






More info from the Powerdyne builder on the high speed bearing issue


Actually I assumed wrong ! The bearing felt rough when spin by hand, so I assumed it was bad…

But in reality, turned out when we took it out - just was a few tiny pieces of trash in the bearing - seemed like maybe tiny pieces of aluminum - but cleaned it out and seems fine, but will obviously still replace it !



I really have no idea what it was, or where it can from, but so small it fell out when I popped it apart, and lost it, I figure it was causing the balls to ‘skate’ along, causing the sound, without damaging the race… “
 














Latest Dyno pull after XB-1A was repaired.

I had hoped to hear of success, sorry if your build lost another blower, or if something else is up?
 






Finally have the Powerdyne XB-1a on my 2000 Explorer initially dialed in. Here is a quick comparison short of my initial 0-60 pulls versus those with the BD-11a with the same pulleys. Dyno sheets for current setup are coming soon….


 






So the original Ford OEM Waterpump decided to make these interesting noises and realized it was time to replace it while increasing the crank pulley size, ribs and changing to a different waterpump pulley size (to make it all fit) for the Powerdyne XB-1A Gear Driven Supercharger that is currently installed.

The reality is that the secondary musical like sound it was making has been ongoing since the 1st Powerdyne BD-11A silent drive/belt drive Supercharger was installed. You would always hear it just as you shut off the engine. Interesting to finally know where it was coming from.

Found out that Ford no longer makes the waterpump for the 2nd Generation Ford Explorer V8 5.0 Motor but I was fortunate enough to find an NOS Genuine Ford unit - brand new in the box and never opened.

 






Hoping this gives a bit more for reducing any possible slippage. Coming off of the lower alternator bracket we put an idler pulley that basically puts pressure on the bottom of the supercharger belt (pushing up) and then tensioned it (the belt) to the appropriate tension measured using the Gates KriKit tool
 






Hoping this gives a bit more for reducing any possible slippage. Coming off of the lower alternator bracket we put an idler pulley that basically puts pressure on the bottom of the supercharger belt (pushing up) and then tensioned it (the belt) to the appropriate tension measured using the Gates KriKit tool
It does seem to have helped some. Right now in the middle of building a new crank pulley (going larger), new waterpump pulley and possibly moving all for the supercharger to an 8-rib setup. Its a tight fit. Also moving to a true 200 amp alternator.
 






Go man, Sounds like you got it figured-out and will be pumping better boost soon!
 






So finally took care of alternator and waterpump issues. Figured out new spacing and might be able to fit 8 ribs while making the SC Crank pulley larger. Here are the new XB-1A blower rpm calculations.

Blower builder recommends 50K max RPM for longevity/reliability


So thinking between 48.5 - 50K


Calculations (I think they should all be correct)


8" Crank Pulley and 3.1/2.86/2.65 SC Pulley


  • 5200
    • 46262.58
    • 50036.36
    • 54001.51
  • 5300
    • 47050.32
    • 50998.6
    • 55040
  • 5400
    • 47938.06
    • 51960.84
    • 56078.49
  • 5500
    • 48825.81
    • 52923.08
    • 57116.98
  • 5600
    • 49713.55
    • 53885.31
    • 58155.47

7.5" Crank Pulley and 3.1/2.86/2.65 SC Pulley


  • 5200
    • 43277.42
    • 46909.09
    • 50626.42
  • 5300
    • 44109.68
    • 47811.19
    • 51600
  • 5400
    • 44941.94
    • 48713.29
    • 52573.58
  • 5500
    • 45774.19
    • 49615.38
    • 53547.17
  • 5600
    • 46606.45
    • 50517.48
    • 54520.75

7.0" Crank Pulley and 3.1/2.86/2.65 SC Pulley


  • 5200
    • 40392.26
    • 43781.82
    • 47251.32
  • 5300
    • 41169.03
    • 44623.78
    • 48160.00
  • 5400
    • 41945.81
    • 45465.73
    • 49068.68
  • 5500
    • 42722.58
    • 46307.69
    • 49977.36
  • 5600
    • 43499.35
    • 47149.65
    • 50886.04

6.5 (Current) Crank Pulley and 3.1/2.86/2.65SC Pulley


  • 5200
    • 37507.10
    • 40654.55
    • 43876.23
  • 5300
    • 38228.39
    • 41436.36
    • 44720
  • 5400
    • 38949.68
    • 42218.18
    • 45563.77
  • 5500
    • 39670.97
    • 43000
    • 46407.55
  • 5600
    • 40392.26
    • 43781.82
    • 47251.32
 






So here you can see the difficulty in going with a bigger supercharger crank pulley on the second generation V8 Ford Explorer with the Powerdyne kit

Right now we have an initial test spacer that is pushing out the stock supercharger pulley and now it’s understandable how much room that we have to work with to increase the diameter of the supercharger crank pulley. We have to work around the water pump pulley, and the clearance to the E fan. As it’s been explained to me, we should now be able to go with an eight rib pulley and increase the diameter significantly and fit within the clearance allowed this particular set up.

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I feel the pain, took me three tries to get my belts/fans/cooling working good and the way I wanted.

I bet it's nice to know it's progressing towards more boost with 8 ribs to eliminate belt slippage!
 






I feel the pain, took me three tries to get my belts/fans/cooling working good and the way I wanted.

I bet it's nice to know it's progressing towards more boost with 8 ribs to eliminate belt slippage!
Yes, I think with the 8 ribs and the increased reliability plus boost of the Powerdyne XB-1A, this thing will end up being quite the package.
 






Prototype crank pulley extension and original
Powerdyne pulley being sent off for fabrication and increase of crank pulley size and ribs count

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New 7.5 inch 8-rib crank pulley arrived for my 2000 Ford Explorer 5.0 V8

The custom work looks amazing and can’t wait until it is installed

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So to refresh - with this new pulley combo - I'll be able to spin the blower at follows (Chose the 2.8 pulley for the SC)

7.5" Crank Pulley and 3.1/2.86/2.65 SC Pulley


  • 5200 - 46909.09
  • 5300 - 47811.19
  • 5400 - 48713.29
  • 5500 - 49615.38
  • 5600 - 50517.48
But best of all will be the better belt wrap due to the 7.5 in crank pulley and changing from a 6-rib setup to 8-rib setup. Should be a bit more boost (LOL) too!
 






Just a little blurb for the historical record on Powerdyne. As you might know, Floyd James Wheeler's (James Wheeler) company WheelerCo Products, Inc - aka Powerdyne Automotive sold out to O2 Force back sometime in 2010 or earlier. Some of the story of O2 Force is discussed earlier in another post I made. This blurb is from the old Performance Supply Innovations website that talked about their association with O2 Force before the company went belly up and sold all of their rights and inventory to the Manness Brothers (Supercharger Rebuilds)

****
Powerdyne
The Powerdyne Story....


You may or may not have heard about the Powerdyne Supercharger company, but for many years they were a dominant force in the performance automotive world.

They brought the belt-drive supercharger into the mainstream. Thousands of supercharger kits were sold around the world to car enthusiasts looking for the most bang-for-their-performance-dollar. A supercharger can easily add 35-60% more power, depending on application.

Anyway, as many companies did during the recent economic crunch, Powerdyne was forced to close its doors.

Not wanting to see an awesome product line go to waste, O2-Force stepped in and assumed control of the company.

As demand started to rise again, O2-Force started looking for a manufacturing and engineering firm to design and build all of the new model superchargers and components. That would be where we come in!
Performance Supply Innovations, in conjunction with O2-Force, is happy to announce that manufacturing and production is now underway for all existing Powerdyne kits, as well as new model cars (2010 Mustang, 2010 Camaro, 2010 Taurus, and much more)
Some products are being redesigned and rebuilt from the ground up. We are taking a quality-first approach to everything we do!

We are currently expanding our facilities, updating our website, and hiring staff to accommodate this incredible new product line. Please bear with us while the dust settles.
ARE YOU LOOKING FOR POWERDYNE REPLACEMENT PARTS?
We have EVERYTHING, including:
-All previously existing Powerdyne components
-Brand new superchargers (head units)
-Mounting brackets for all existing kits, and new ones on the way
-Bearings
-Impellers
-Pulleys
-Belts
-Induction Tubes

New PSI Supercharger Kits are planned for the following cars:
2010 Camaro (v6 and v8)
2010 Mustang (4.0L and 4.6L)
2011 Mustang (5.0L)
2010 Taurus (non-SHO)
2008-Present Dodge Challenger
LX Platform Cars: Charger, Magnum, 300C
...and Many Many More!


Our website does not currently reflect all of the above items, so please CONTACT US for specific information for your needs.

Thank You,
-PSI

May 28, 2010

It also seems somewhere during this time, O2 Force or Powerdyne also was attempting to do some work with a company called Accelerated Tooling LLC who eventually became Torqstorm Superchargers. According to Torqstorm - approached to help redesign the case of the Powerdyne supercharger that had gone out of business. According to them, the Powerdyne BD-Series Supercharger had a lot of issues with bearings, heat, and belts that broke when going over 6 psi. The re- design had to fix all of these issues plus incorporate a self- contained oiling system, eliminate the belt, look better than the original, and be a direct bolt- on for the original. It also had to integrate all the old parts that the company had: bearings and scrolls etc. Powerdyne or O2 Force (?) didn’t like the cost involved with the re- designed supercharger using a billet case that Accelerated Tooling made for them. The serious problem with the old castings, which they wanted to continue to use, was that the location of the bearing was not controlled well, causing premature bearing failure. Accelerated Tooling LLC absorbed these redesign costs - having never received compensation from Powerdyne or O2-Force (?)
A year later, Accelerated Racing Product LLC was formed, and development started on the TorqStorm® supercharger.

As I dig into this, there seems to be quite an interesting story of the origins of Powerdyne and possible beef/rift between James Middlebrook of Vortech and James Wheeler. Both Middlebrook and Wheeler left Paxon and started Vortech. It is said that Middlebrook was more the engineer and Middlebrook was more sales related and in some way was forced out of Vortech by Middlebrook (some claims that MIddlebrook wanted to keep it all for himself?)

Researching the early Vortech and Powerdyne patents some info came out that the early Vortech designs came either from rejected Paxton designs that either of them had access to and some others from some unnamed overseas supercharger design that one or the other came across.. The belt driven Powerdyne seems to have been a rejected Paxton design (it was referred to as the Ninja Blower at Paxon during those days) that Wheeler took and used to start up his own company (WheelerCo Products / Powerdyne Automotive).

More interesting is when Wheeler started to offer the XB-9000 Race Blower / XB-1A Blower (both gear driven) they are very similar to the early Vortech design and maybe even infringed on James Middlebrooks patents for the Vortech V1. It will be interesting to know what sort of behind the scenes disputes this caused between Middlebrook and Wheeler as well.

Another patent by Wheeler (it seems that maybe both James Wheeler and his father were involved in the designs) was for a throttle body spacer. Reading through the patent description is interesting and maybe could be funny for a more engineer minded person. Was James Wheeler just more sales oriented (similar to Steve Saleen) and his father more the engineer or was there something more interesting that was going on?

I also found there was a lawsuit between K&N and James Wheeler/Powerdyne/WheelerCo but it currently is unclear what the dispute was about.

There is surely a very interesting and perhaps dramatic story here involving Paxton, James Middlebrook, Floyd James Wheeler (Father and Son - one was a Nevada Congressman later on), Vortech Engineering, WheelerCo Products, Powerdyne Automotive, O2-Force. Maybe one day later there will be enough information to share it.

10 years after starting Vortech, James Middlebrook aquired Paxton and last year the Vortech Paxton company was aquired bu Taglich Private Equity, the group that owns Air Flow Research, Scat Crankshafts, RaceTec Pistons and Procar seating.

Scat recently moved into the Vortech facility.

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Update

Here are some pictures of the new 8 rib 7.5 inch Powerdyne XB-1a supercharger Ford Explorer 5.0 custom fabricated crankshaft pulley installed along with the 2.8 inch eight rib supercharger pulley (with custom spacer). The electric fan is not installed in order to show the clearances more clearly that we were able to achieve.

The original setup from Powerdyne for the 5.0 Liter V8 Explorer was a 6.5” 6 rib crank shaft pulley and a 3.1” Supercharger pulley on the BD-11a.
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