1998 Explorer electrical issue: windows, wipers, interior lights stop working when car is running

[mhorning]

Hi Everyone,
I'm new to the forum, but have been reading through previous posts and really appreciate all the advice here. I have 1998 Ford Explorer that I'm trying to restore, and I'm having some strange electrical issues.

Basically, when the key is on the "on" position, my windows roll up and down, my wipers work, the interior lights work and the 4wd lights light up (still not sure it works entirely, but I'm thinking it's a separate issue).

However, when I start the car, all of these features stop working- windows, wipers, interior lights, and 4wd switch not long lights the 4wd light on the dash.

So far I've traced the blue/blk wire from the fuse accessory delay relay to the door master door switch and there are no breaks. I've even taken out the relay and powered terminal 87 and 30 to verify that the windows roll down. I also checked for voltage in the door boot on the drivers side, which I do have. I also verfied that I have voltage from the power distribution box to that relay. In addition.

I also checked the fuses under the hood and on the other panel near the drivers side door. All seem to be working.

Any advice where to go next would be appreciated.

 

[J_C]

Seems pretty strange, no ideas except if you have high resistance somewhere like at the power distribution box under the hood, and possibly in conjunction with a weak alternator and battery, so running the vehicle is dropping the system voltage too low. There are 2nd gen wiring diagrams linked below in my sig if that helps.

 

[Pete Deering]

Cck the

Hi Everyone,
I'm new to the forum, but have been reading through previous posts and really appreciate all the advice here. I have 1998 Ford Explorer that I'm trying to restore, and I'm having some strange electrical issues.

Basically, when the key is on the "on" position, my windows roll up and down, my wipers work, the interior lights work and the 4wd lights light up (still not sure it works entirely, but I'm thinking it's a separate issue).

However, when I start the car, all of these features stop working- windows, wipers, interior lights, and 4wd switch not long lights the 4wd light on the dash.

So far I've traced the blue/blk wire from the fuse accessory delay relay to the door master door switch and there are no breaks. I've even taken out the relay and powered terminal 87 and 30 to verify that the windows roll down. I also checked for voltage in the door boot on the drivers side, which I do have. I also verfied that I have voltage from the power distribution box to that relay. In addition.

I also checked the fuses under the hood and on the other panel near the drivers side door. All seem to be working.

Any advice where to go next would be appreciated.

check the GEM module. All those feature go the GEM.

 

[Pete Deering]

The illuminated entry inputs are:

1. Door open warning lamp switch (grounded when the handle is lifted; an open circuit when the handle is released).
2. Ignition switch in the key-in, ACCY and RUN position.
3. RAP illuminated entry request.

The GEM/CTM sleep mode outputs are:

1. None (All circuits are deactivated during sleep mode).

If a change in any of the above inputs occur while the GEM/CTM is asleep, the GEM/CTM will wake up and monitor all of its inputs, and will have the ability to activate any of its outputs.

The GEM module provides temporary power to the power windows, the rear wiper (for parking of the rear wiper off the liftgate glass), and the message center for ten minutes after the ignition switch is moved from the RUN to OFF position. If,duringthis ten-minute period, either front door is opened, the delayed accessory relay will be de-energized.

The GEM controls the one-touch down window feature. When the power switch for the driver window control is held down (between 0.04 and 0.4 second) and then released with the ignition switch in RUN OR ACC, the driver window will automaticallymove toits full down position.

Only the driver window has this feature. Holding the driver window switch down longer allows the operator to stop the window as soon as the switch is released. For additional power window information, refer to Glass, Frames and Mechanisms.

To activate the two-step unlock system the GEM requires that there must be two transitions of the unlock switch. After the GEM senses the first transition, it unlocks that door where the transition occurs and illuminates the courtesy lamps.There isa five-second window that begins from the first transition of the unlock switch. If within that window, a second unlock command is sensed by the GEM, the GEM will energize a relay to unlock all the doors after the second transition of the unlockswitchreturns to the vertical position in the door lock cylinder.

 

[J_C]

^ Agreed, but, why would the GEM work when ignition switch is in run position, but not after starting it?

After further consideration, all I can come up with is that these things are supposed to have power cut while cranking the engine, so electrically that cut out is still active after doing so and the engine is running, making me suspect the ignition switch itself or the key cylinder mechanical connection to it - I could be wrong.

I wonder if while the engine is running, if you could nudge the key back a little towards the off position, without going far enough to shut the engine off, and would then regain the functionality of these vehicle features. I doubt that proves anything if it doesn't work, but if it does work, then it seems to indicate what I mentioned, ignition switch or cylinder interconnect issue.

 

[Pete Deering]

Bad

^ Agreed, but, why would the GEM work when ignition switch is in run position, but not after starting it?

After further consideration, all I can come up with is that these things are supposed to have power cut while cranking the engine, so electrically that cut out is still active after doing so and the engine is running, making me suspect the ignition switch itself or the key cylinder mechanical connection to it - I could be wrong.

I wonder if while the engine is running, if you could nudge the key back a little towards the off position, without going far enough to shut the engine off, and would then regain the functionality of these vehicle features. I doubt that proves anything if it doesn't work, but if it does work, then it seems to indicate what I mentioned, ignition switch or cylinder interconnect issue.

bad solder joints. The GEM contains, relays, circuit board. I think you stated a bad connection. I could not find the wiring diagram for the GEM , for that year. There's a power input to the GEM, maybe a bad ground. They all need to be check and verified.

 

[J_C]

^ Okay but if it consistently works with key in run but not engine running, wouldn't that be a heck of a coincidence if a relay, circuit board, or connection fault? I suppose it's possible that the vibration of the engine running is causing that sort of fault.

 

[Pete Deering]

^ Okay but if it consistently works with key in run but not engine running, wouldn't that be a heck of a coincidence if a relay, circuit board, or connection fault? I suppose it's possible that the vibration of the engine running is causing that sort of fault.

I experience a bad connection with barrel pin. I rang out fine with a meter, but when you apply voltage, it went open. It was in a plastic connector body.
I am thinking maybe a bad body ground. If the ground is sharing the same ground stud with the PCM ground.

 

[mhorning]

^ Agreed, but, why would the GEM work when ignition switch is in run position, but not after starting it?

After further consideration, all I can come up with is that these things are supposed to have power cut while cranking the engine, so electrically that cut out is still active after doing so and the engine is running, making me suspect the ignition switch itself or the key cylinder mechanical connection to it - I could be wrong.

I wonder if while the engine is running, if you could nudge the key back a little towards the off position, without going far enough to shut the engine off, and would then regain the functionality of these vehicle features. I doubt that proves anything if it doesn't work, but if it does work, then it seems to indicate what I mentioned, ignition switch or cylinder interconnect issue.

Thanks for this idea. I will give it a try!

 

[mhorning]

I experience a bad connection with barrel pin. I rang out fine with a meter, but when you apply voltage, it went open. It was in a plastic connector body.
I am thinking maybe a bad body ground. If the ground is sharing the same ground stud with the PCM ground.

The illuminated entry inputs are:

1. Door open warning lamp switch (grounded when the handle is lifted; an open circuit when the handle is released).
2. Ignition switch in the key-in, ACCY and RUN position.
3. RAP illuminated entry request.

The GEM/CTM sleep mode outputs are:

1. None (All circuits are deactivated during sleep mode).

If a change in any of the above inputs occur while the GEM/CTM is asleep, the GEM/CTM will wake up and monitor all of its inputs, and will have the ability to activate any of its outputs.

The GEM module provides temporary power to the power windows, the rear wiper (for parking of the rear wiper off the liftgate glass), and the message center for ten minutes after the ignition switch is moved from the RUN to OFF position. If,duringthis ten-minute period, either front door is opened, the delayed accessory relay will be de-energized.

The GEM controls the one-touch down window feature. When the power switch for the driver window control is held down (between 0.04 and 0.4 second) and then released with the ignition switch in RUN OR ACC, the driver window will automaticallymove toits full down position.

Only the driver window has this feature. Holding the driver window switch down longer allows the operator to stop the window as soon as the switch is released. For additional power window information, refer to Glass, Frames and Mechanisms.

To activate the two-step unlock system the GEM requires that there must be two transitions of the unlock switch. After the GEM senses the first transition, it unlocks that door where the transition occurs and illuminates the courtesy lamps.There isa five-second window that begins from the first transition of the unlock switch. If within that window, a second unlock command is sensed by the GEM, the GEM will energize a relay to unlock all the doors after the second transition of the unlockswitchreturns to the vertical position in the door lock cylinder.

Thanks for this detailed explanation it will be helpful trying to figure this out.

 

[mhorning]

Thanks for the all of these suggestions. These are helpful. One more point of information that might be useful. When I turn the Explorer off after starting it, after a few seconds I can hear the accessory delay relay click. It is after that click that I can then use the windows, interior lights, wipers, etc. It seems as if something is energizing that relay after I turn the vehicle off.

 

[J_C]

From what I see on a wiring diagram, door locks and windows are going through the Accessory Delay Relay but interior lights don't, only through the Battery Saver Relay, or interior lamp relay. If both the windows and interior lamps start to work after a single relay clicks, then it is most likely the battery saver relay, or else both relays are toggling simultaneously so it sounds like a single click. Swapping in different relays is certainly something to try, especially because it's not hard and free to just swap relays of same type to different sockets, but I still wonder about the ignition switch because a bad relay would usually operate about the same whether the engine was running or not, as long as the key is in the same run position, which makes me wonder if the ignition switch has a fault and it's going into the start position but not backing off that electrical contact until the key is turned further towards the off position.