2016 Sport misfire issues after mods installed

[Livernois]

Riddle solved!

There is not enough oxygenation in M100. There is is too much gravity, density, viscosity combined with a terrible burn rate will cause all types of havoc on a TDI motor.

 

[16Sport]

Is there a way to clean the injectors to completely fix the issue or should they be replaced?
If they do need to be replaced is there an aftermarket option that can be tuned with my existing set up and allow for benefits down the road?

Thanks!

 

[need-a-cage]

What is M100 fuel?

 

[Odrapnew]

Looks like it Fuel Oil. If that's accurate, how did that get into the fuel system?

 

[jays05]

Maybe they are talking about the 100oct fuel I see at some Marathon gas stations? If they are, I blew a head gasket in my Subaru with that fuel running not much more boost than my 93oct tune.

 

[16Sport]

MS100 is an unleaded VP racing fuel. My local dealer recommended it as did the sales rep from VP.
Apparently its not suppose to be run in the Explorer and subsequently im spending $2000 having my fuel system drained, flushed and all new injectors installed.

 

[need-a-cage]

Wow, that really sucks. Is it not compatible with all fuel injection or just direct injection? We have Sunoco 100 octane unleaded at Sonoma Raceway. I am assuming it is the same as 91 but with more octane and not some totally different type of fuel.

 

[Livernois]

The Turbo Direct Injection (TDI) EcoBoost engines are EXTREMELY sensitive to weird things like plug gap, oxygenation of fuel, fuel quality as well as octane of fuel.

If you want to run better fueling we ONLY recommend using VP Race Fuel's MS109.

It is the perfect combination of octane, volume and oxygenation.

 

[16Sport]

Its good that this topic has received some exposure. Hopefully nobody else will make the same costly mistake as I did. My combined expenses to date for adding the wrong fuel are around $3k!
Thats for endless hours of diagnostics, 3 sets of plugs installed, 6 new injectors installed, fuel system dropped and flushed ect.
Thats after spending thousands on modifications installed 2 months ago which Ive never seen the potential of because of the ongoing injector issue.
Lesson learned!!!

 

[need-a-cage]

Is it now back to running the way it should?

 

[jeff59rt1]

How often where you adding or running that fuel? You had stated earlier that you had run many tanks of different fuel with the same results. Where you adding this in everytime, or is one tank of the race fuel enough to ruin the injectors. Is a 2016 sport e85 compatible?

 

[16Sport]

How often where you adding or running that fuel? You had stated earlier that you had run many tanks of different fuel with the same results. Where you adding this in everytime, or is one tank of the race fuel enough to ruin the injectors. Is a 2016 sport e85 compatible?

I ran only 5 gallons of MS100 race fuel just one time, mixed with half a tank of 93 pump gas. Since that time Ive put 4K miles on the vehicle just running 93 pump. Ive run the tank down to almost empty each time making sure any old fuel is used up.
After installing new injectors last week with no improvement, Ive had a local shop spend many hours driving my Explorer with a Snap-on scan tool attached. We have watched live data including map sensor, cam sensors, crank sensor with all normal results. Each coil was also tested individually and appeared to have equal output. Even went back to basics and did a compression test to verify all cylinders are making similar pressure.

We then decided to load the STOCK tune back and have not had one misfire or engine break down. Still running 93 octane pump fuel and the only issue is a check engine light since I'm running the race downpipes and high flow cats. Otherwise it has run flawless.

The issue seems to show itself once the 91 tune is installed and then just gets worse as the 93 and 3 bar map tunes are applied. Once you produce more boost the amount of black smoke and engine breakdown equally increases.

My mechanic and I are starting to speculate that this sounds like a mechanical issue? Possibly a weak or broken valve spring? This would simulate a similar running condition and the increased boost may cause the havoc were seeing.

Problem now is that with a stock tune there are no issues so I cant have it warrantied by the dealer and the aftermarket tune does not allow it to run properly so I'm in a grey area trying to decide where to go from here...

 

[need-a-cage]

I really can't believe that one of your first steps in troubleshooting wasn't to load the stock tune back in. That would have been my first step. Sorry, I know that is easy for me to say. I am sorry that you have spent so much money trying to figure this out. It also seems like your tuner didn't help you from spending unnecessary money as well. I want a tuner thst can datalog so you can see what changes were made to boost, timing, and AFR. Is it true that the My Calibrator does not datalog? If that is true, I will definitely get an SCT product with someone's custom tune.
Were you able to datalog your fuel pressure, fuel pump dutycycle, injector dutycycle, or AFR with the shop's equipment? If your pump was having issues, it could lean out when you add boost. I wouldn't expect black smoke though, unless it leaned out so bad it didn't fire. You need to put a wideband O2 on it. The new Mustang runs closed loop 100% of the time around a wideband O2, does the Explorer? If it does, just get something you can use for datalogging if your tuner can't do it. I know they have stuff for your smart phone that can do it. Hopefully datalogging will allow you to stop guessing and really see what is going wrong. I find it hard to believe that something like a valve spring would only fail with extra boost. There would be other issues and most likely rpm related, not boost level. Extra boost needs stronger spark and more fuel. Sounds like you checked the spark. Datalog boost and make sure the tune isn't going to crazy boost levels causing it to run out of fuel. Maybe a sensor is bad causing it to dump in too much fuel?
Good luck and please keep us updated. I am not tuning ours until you figure out what went wrong. If I break my wife's brand new car she will KILL me!!!!!

 

[need-a-cage]

Get a wideband on it. You need to see what the AFR is doing. Even if it runs off a wideband, you need to see what a remote sensor reads. Put it on a dyno and monitor AFR. You need to see if it is getting super rich and then missing or if it is leaning out. Black smoke would say it is rich. Do you see the smoke increase before it misses? I think a misfire shows lean on AFR.

 

[need-a-cage]

I think the upstream O2's are widebands that it runs off of. Maybe you have a bad one? If it isn't sensing all the fuel it will cause it to run rich.

 

[Odrapnew]

Something doesn't add up. Why wouldn't you load the stock tune(as mentioned before) prior to putting in new injectors? Who suggested to drain and flush the fuel system and replace injectors? Was the tune ever questioned by the tune supplier?

 

[16Sport]

Ive been talking to Livernois and taking their advice. One person I spoke to over the phone said I should not run the stock tune with the race downpipes. A totally different person from the tuning company suggested dumping the fuel system and replacing the injectors. Earlier on i was told it was definately the plugs. Each time that it's been recommended I change parts the tuner was very confident it would fix the problem. But they also mentioned they've never seen this before and it's hard to diagnose a vehicle when you can't see it in person. Unfortunately everything has been done through email and it's been a while since I've heard back from them.
It's discouraging because I wanted to add meth injection and possibly a long block and turbo upgrade next season. Its been my intension since the beginning to run high 12s. I have almost $6k invested in mods and diagnosis to date and dont feel failure is an option. This is why Ive turned to the forum hoping for some alternate opinions...

 

[need-a-cage]

Without being able to datalog and send them the file, they are just guessing. You MUST datalog as your next step. Will they send you a less aggressive tune that you can try out? Ask them to send you a tune with half of the extra boost so you can log while hopefully not having the miss and monitor your fuel delivery and see if something is on the edge. Did they ever resend you the file in case something was corrupt?

You can get something like this for logging. I just did a quick search. You should investigate which one is best. This is just an example and I have done 0 research. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00652G4TS?psc=1

I am guessing a trip to the tuner is out of the question. Looks like it would take a while to get there. You need to check the AFR. Did the mechanic view the fuel rail pressure when it missed? Did he see commanded AFR, actual AFR, load, injector and fuel pump dutycycle? All of these need to be monitored. Maybe the tune is not calculating load properly at the high boost levels and it is commanding too much fuel. If it does run off of a wideband O2, the computer should read the rich condition and compensate, but it may not have enough room to adjust from the initial calibration. If the base tune is too far off, the loop can't swing far enough to bring it back in.

 

[Livernois]

[MENTION=97435]need-a-cage[/MENTION] that is not actually true.

If there is not a DTC produced by the ECM there is not a software related issue at all. The issue lies in one of the car's mechanical systems. If there were a tuning related issue then there would be a trouble code. We explained the issue with the addition of M100 or MS100 at length with 16sport.

The biggest issue is partly that there is no definitive answer on what the fuel was. Either way the fuel that was introduced was detrimental. If there were an issue with the tune it would have been happening from day one. As you can see if you go through other posts the car ran fine...UNTIL this mystery fuel was introduced. The OP admits that the issue started about 30 minutes AFTER the new fuel was added. The fact that an aftermarket tune for lack of a better term "turns up" all of the performance parameters will only highlight an issue if one exists in a mechanical part or system. To blindly blame the tune because there is no logging is not accurate.

Then to add further insult to injury you reference AFR. EcoBoosts DO NOT operate of recognize Air/Fuel Ratio. That might as well be an encrypted language that the ECM cannot read.

Anyone taking the native values and changing them into something else gives a chance for things to be miscalculated. This is the biggest issues we see with data logging. If someone looks at AFR on a logger, that value is already calculated. But the issue is what conversion are they using? 14.64? 14.08? something else? Now, what about what is in your tank. If they are assuming e10, and you have something more like e6, that instantly makes the applied conversion incorrect. Then, what if they aren't grabbing the right data point from the ECM to log it? What if they are grabbing one with an offset already added in? or a delay? or a commanded vs actual average?

You can see where one simple item like "afr" is all of a sudden riddled with chances of incorrect data being displayed. Now, we haven't even started talking about boost, or any other myriad of items that could be logged. You see, the Data points that almost all dataloggers use are SAE. Now, SAE standards are nice, BUT they are not designed for someone to do calibration from. They are for repair shops to help diagnose issues with vehicles. So, the level of precision, and refresh rate is not what's needed to do proper calibration development. If you are using a data point with a 200ms refresh rate, but the actual value in the ECM refreshes every 8ms, then the ECM is updating 50x more frequently then what you are watching. Again, you start to see where the issues happen and it's easier to understand why we do not treat the EcoBoost like any other engine before it.

Can someone get lucky and eventually end up with a tune that works by looking at the wrong data? Absolutely. Can they repeat those results over and over again without starting from scratch each time? Usually not. And it all stems from having the right knowledge, and data in the first place.

To make it a little easier to picture for most people. If Ford, GM, Chrysler, or any auto manufacturer could spend $30-50 on hardware to datalog and do calibration, why don't they? The answer is simple, you can't, it takes 10's of Thousands of dollars to have the right hardware just for the process to begin.

Sorry for the lengthy post guys, but inaccurate info will only convolute the issue further.

 

[16Sport]

Thanks for chiming in. Your input is greatly appreciated. I did want to verify the fuel used was VP Racing MS100. I still have the empty can that it came in. If the fuel is the issue then I would assume that would narrow down what the problem would be? Also there is also the possiblilty that the fuel is not related to the problem since the plugs and injectors have been replaced with no improvement. But i realize the issue beginning just after points to the fuel.
In no way do i want to bash Livernois or anyone else. I just want to keep the process of elimination moving forward with new ideas and options. I personally am highly experienced with GM Ls3 engines and own a 10 sec C6 Corvette. Totally different vehicle and this is my 1st Ecoboost build. Ive built over 25 vehicles and am not a stranger to spending money or having setbacks. But if the tuner is willing to stay committed to working with me Ill stand behind them til the end and keep investing in their products and promoting their name.
I have more time scheduled with my local mechanic next week for diagnostics. My goal was to offer him several new ideas to check and verify that would further narrow down the problem