AC Black Death on 98 5.0 Please Help!!!

[Fiberford]

Ok, this sucks. The AC is out. The mechanic, who is an Explorer owner, referred to my condition as "Black Death." Said a there is clog in the system, and a complete overhaul is the only option. Cost is $1100. Need to replace evaporator, condensor, and more.

Has anyone else had this problem? Is there a cheaper solution? Before I went to the shop, I checked the pressure, it was right on. I checked the blend door, and it worked. I checked that the clutch was engaging, it was, though it would click on and off a few times when air is first turned on.

I just booked my honeymoon yesterday and this is what I learn today!!! PLEASE HELP!!!

 

[Glacier991]

If you truly have experienced the compressor "self destructing" and have the so called "Black Death"... it is going to be an expensive repair if you have to have someone else do it. Parts (including flushing fluid and R-12) for my 92 were nearly $600 alone. You will need to replace the compressor, you can try and flush the condensor, and maybe you can save it, maybe not, if not then new there, replace the accumulator (a good choice anytime you open up a system with any miles on it) and the return line (the one with the can muffler on it), and finally the orifice tube. Thje orifice tube has a screen, and often it will protect the evaporator. You can try reverse flushing the evaporator, usually with good results. Often as not the evap is ok. Hope this helps.

 

[Fiberford]

Glacier991,

I have been reading alot of posted about AC involving you. Couple of questions. How many hours should I expect to invest in this repair? What recommendations do you have? My experience on AC is limited. Had a clogged evaporator on 90 Integra, just blew it out on a bench and replaced with 134. Worked sufficiently. Helped a neighbor install a compressor, system was empty, just out with the old, in with the new. So obviously, I ain't got a clue about evacuating or flushing. Everything has been half-*ssed just get it somewhat working. I would like to do this once the right way and be done, and for less then $1100. Thankfully, my brother is coming to Charlotte from Detroit for the race this weekend. Since he works for Ford, I can complain to him about the transfer case rebuild, front hub assembly replacement, 3 bad ball joints, 1 bad tie rod end, clogged upper cat. converter on bank one and AC "Black Death" all occurring within 12 months. Oh, and he's in supplier quality control!!!

If you truly have experienced the compressor "self destructing" and have the so called "Black Death"... it is going to be an expensive repair if you have to have someone else do it. Parts (including flushing fluid and R-12) for my 92 were nearly $600 alone. You will need to replace the compressor, you can try and flush the condensor, and maybe you can save it, maybe not, if not then new there, replace the accumulator (a good choice anytime you open up a system with any miles on it) and the return line (the one with the can muffler on it), and finally the orifice tube. Thje orifice tube has a screen, and often it will protect the evaporator. You can try reverse flushing it, usually with good results. Often as not the evap is ok. Hope this helps.

 

[Glacier991]

Time to do ? Maybe 4 - 6 hours. If you want to tackle this yourself, I'd recommend you buy a flush gun (see my AC posts, there is a link there to a suppplier - they are about $40) and a quart of ester flush. Take it to an AC shop and tell them you are going to rebuild it, but you wnt them to recover the remaining refrigerant, and will bring it back for them to leak test your work, evac and recharge it.

Buy a new compressor (find an Auto AC supplier - don't buy it from the corner auto parts stores) and a new accumulator, and new orifice tube and also the top return line (corner auto parts store ok on these, but compare prices). You will also need a line decoupler tool (inexpensive). Autozone will loan you an orifice removal tool, you will probably need it.

With the system discharged remove the compressor, the accumulator and the top return line (kind of have to snake it out). Using your flush gun reverse flush the evap and recover the flush, if clear, you're good there. Next flush the condensor, if you want to start with alcohol that's fine. If you can get it clear you may have lucked out, if after several passes it's still coming out dirty, give it up and buy a new condensor. If it comes clear finish with flush and then blow it out. When in doubt replace. Replace any green O-rings you find. Ask the AC shop you buy your compressor from if they carry 134 compatible NYLOG. If so buy a bottle, and lube all your sealing rings with it. It's a good insurance policy - it's great stuff!

Put her all back together and take it to the AC place to evacuate, watching for leaks (falling vacuum) and if everything is good (should be esp with NYLOG) have them recharge it. You might get by for as little as $350, but budget $600.

HTH

ps. read the AC threads in the Useful Threads forum.

 

[Fiberford]

Are NAPA AC parts any good? Or should I find a specialty AC parts shop?

How much does it usually cost for the capture, refill, and vacuum test?

Again, thank you for all you help.

 

[jgilbs]

i also am trying to fix my ac. what is the going rate for a flush and evacuate? (System leaked to empty)

 

[Glacier991]

jgilbs.... you need to have the leak found. I doubt based on what you are saying to this point a flush is required. Once the leak is fixed it would just be an evacuate and recharge of the system. that ought to be around $100 but I haven't priced it in AGES, so I could be off. Maybe others who have paid for it can chime in here.


Oh wait, you have a 92. Was it converted to 134 or not? If not the recharge will be about $200. R-12 is expensive !

 

[EMG7895]

My 93 has had that problem, charge it it works for a week go back and they charge a few hundred to find a leak and they say they fixed it of they replaced something so it works for a month or 2 if you are lucky. I got sick of pouring money into the A/c for years on a truck with 110000 miles so now in replacing anything that could be quesionable and then im having it professionally checked and charged.

 

[MyExpWork]

My 93 has had that problem, charge it it works for a week go back and they charge a few hundred to find a leak and they say they fixed it of they replaced something so it works for a month or 2 if you are lucky. I got sick of pouring money into the A/c for years on a truck with 110000 miles so now in replacing anything that could be quesionable and then im having it professionally checked and charged.

I did the same thing. Paid 250.00 once to have them find a leak, and refill with the R-12. Paid it a second time two months later because it quit working again. The shop said "I am sorry sir but we cannot guarantee a system this old."

Went to Wal-mart and got one of there R-154 "conversion" kits for 20 bucks. Three hours of cleaning the system and refilling with the R-154 later, and the A/C has been working fine for a year. Nice and cold too. Its just not worth pouring your money into a system that requires 2 or 3 pounds of R-12 at 50 bucks a pound.

Brian

 

[jgilbs]

I was planning on converting it myself - I just dont have a compressor. I was going to replace the accumulator and have it vac'ed and flushed then fill it with 134. I guess im going to have to goto autozone and get some of that leak finder stuff and a new accumulator, but im prob still gonna have it evaced by someone with the right equipment. so wouldnt it be wise to have a flush before a conversion to R-134a, or if its proerly evac'd does it matter?

 

[Bruce Rock]

The mechanic, who is an Explorer owner, referred to my condition as "Black Death." Said a there is clog in the system, and a complete overhaul is the only option. Cost is $1100.

The mechanic I took our explorer to two years ago said the same thing. I wasn't going to pay that so I started removing the AC components. I figured it would make regular servicing easier. I started with the orfice tube, I wanted to check it to see if it was as bad as the one he had showed me. Other than two or three abnormal wear particles (cutting wear) which could have come from a threaded connection, the screen was clean. There was not the volume of particles one would expect to be associated with the catastrophic failure of the compressor. I did find a leak in the accumulator. I replaced it, pulled a vacuum and added two cans of r134a. It still is working two year later with no more r134a added.

I suggest you check the orfice tube for wear debries first.

 

[Glacier991]

Good point Bruce. I was taking at face value he in fact DID have black death. And jgilbs, if you plan to convert to R134 fom R-12, I suggest you read the thread on that in the useful threads forum. (Yes flush b4.... and know people will tell you it is not neessary).

 

[jgilbs]

Glacier - i have read just about every thread on AC, most of them authored by you, so i like to think i have done my research. I plan on first of all, finding the leak, which I will do with the UV sensitive dye.(The thing is, no threads mention how to get it into the system - it just comes in a bottle - not pressurzied, and certainly doesnt have the fittings to just pour it into the system - how the heck do i get it in there?) I will then replace whatever component is leaking(prob just a garter seal or the like - since this system has had some major service in the past - as evidenced by a rebuilt compressor and most of the hoses are labeled R-134a) then I plan on replacing the orfice tube and accumulator, checking for signs of fouling(aka 'Black Death') like I have said in my other thread, it appears i have a relitively new (rebuilt) compressor, so I can't be 100% certain the last owner had it properly flushed. Depending on my monetary situation, I might also add a larger condensor to increase cooling efficiency(do you think this is neccasary/wise?) and then i am going to have it flushed, and evac'd - making sure it can hold a vacuum before adding R-134a and oil. Am I missing any steps? I have read on other sites the compressor should be drained of oil. Is this required in a Ford system? Everything I have seen on here has eluded to the fact that the oil is carried in the refrigerent, thus by evac'ing the system, all oil should be removed with the refridgerent.

 

[Glacier991]

jgilbs.... didn't mean to offend you. Has your system been converted? sounds like it. Let's start there.

 

[jgilbs]

no offense taken - youre the experienced one here. my system(contrary to my initial conclusion) has NOT been converted. it still has the R-12 fittings, but i was thrown off by the green o-rings, because i heard that r-134 fittings use special green o-rings or something. also, it still has the R-12 sticker on the drier/reciever. furthermore, it has that reconditioned compressor - which obvioulsy would require the system to be drained to install, making it a perfect time to retrofit the system. it goes contrary to common sense. this guy(who previoulsy owned the truck) obviously had it extensively serviced, but why the heck didnt he convert? oh well, its just another one of those fun projects i can undertake

 

[Glacier991]

Ok. First off, let me address the issue of refrigerant recovery vs oil recovery. I have a recovery machine that separates oil. When I recover a system I usually get 4 - 5 oz of oil - less than half. (Maybe I should do a post on recovery - with pics).

People disagree on residual oil. I'd say complete disassembly, and flush what you can with ester based flush. Sounds like the hoses have been replacedwith 134 barrier hoses... considering the the mineral oil that was being used with the R-12 - those hoses should not leak! (Mineral oil has barrier properties to 134 interestingly enough.)

New accumulator. If you can find a bigger condensor it would be worthwhile. I'll send you a link for overpressure relief valves....you should add one. If you can find a refrigerant supplier, get yourself some NYLOG for 134... new O-rings wherever you encounter them, NYLOG'd. Add ester oil.... 2 oz to condensor, 3-4 oz to compressor, turrning it by hand as you go, 3-4 oz to accumulator and get an 0z or so into the return line...

Meanwhile...leaks. Prominent leak points. 1. Schrader valves. Replace the cores and NYLOG em. 2. Compressor seal. Ouch. I have the tools and can replace em... often easier and less frustrating to buy a new compressor. 3. Other couplings. 4. rusted out components. 5. Damaged condensor from road debris. 6.Dead squirrels in the system (misc).

How do you get dye in? 1. In a presurized system with a dye injector. (I'll post a pic later). 2. In a pressurized or unpresurized system by adding refrigerant with dye in it. 3. in an unpressurized system by removing the valve core and pouring it in.

Hope this answers some of your Q's

 

[jgilbs]

my system as of right now is empty, save probably for some air. should i just open up the valve core, pour in the dye and run the system with no refrigerent, just dye? what about oil? i am headed to go buy a new accumulator and orfice tube tmo, so ill get all the major additions to the system out of the way. should i install these before or after i put the dye in?(im assuming after - so that the accumulator's deccisent material stays dry and unexposed to the air) do the valve cores just screw off? or do i need a special tool? thanks for your replys glacier, and sorry to hijack your thread fiberford.

 

[Glacier991]

1. No the dye is added to the refrigerant/oil charge. Since you are rebuilding and converting,forget the dye for now. Let the vacuum pump and gauge set hunt for leaks... and we can try and localize em as we go. You can add dyed 134 when you refill.

2.Do the accumulator last, so you minimize the open time.

3. Buy a flush gun.

4.Valve cores are like the onesin bicycle tires. Special tool ? yes, but not VERY special.

5. You will need new fittings. And a conversion sticker.

6. People still argue on the use of leak stop additives. Some shops ae starting to use them. I'm on the fence. I HAVE used them, with limited success.

If you convert, do a good job and you'll have a good system. Cutting corners is penny wise and pound foolish.

 

[Fiberford]

jgilbs, you shouldn't worry about asking questions on my posts. I am learning from your questions as well.

Glacier991, I was wondering if there is a good way to break this job into two days. I would like to knock out a few things by myself on friday before I use a friend of a friend's garage and help on saturday. Any suggestions on what I should do friday that will make life easier and quicker on saturday? I don't want to impose too much and use too much of his time. I should have about 3 hours on friday to tinker.

 

[Glacier991]

As a minimum have the system discharged, and open up and remove the orifice tube to evaluate the diagnosis. If it is clogged with black gunk, make sure you have the necessary parts for Saturday. You can start removing everything but the compressor (leave the belt intact, but unplug the clutch!