battery and subwoofer problem

[syn-]

that story just made my day. by the way, what can I do for a larger alternator? does the interceptror alternator fit? if so what year?

 

[uefear]

Honestly....whoever thinks that caps don't do anything..obviously have not had systems with and without caps. It makes a big difference in better bass response and longer bass notes especially with deeper bass. Also your car battery is not meant to be drained and recharged and drained and recharged its meant to maintain a charge at or above a certain point according to the manufactures specifications.

And its funny when people say that caps are pointless and then they say to add a battery....In reality this is almost the same thing. Obviously a battery will hold more charge. But a cap is storing energy that is waiting to be released when needed. It takes strain off of your battery and alternator by being the first source to drain before the battery and finally the alternator. So yes you could add a battery instead of adding a cap, but your going to spend more money and your going to be doing a little more work to tie it into your system.

Oh and power clipping could be described as this...

Bass hits....not enough power is being produced.....still hitting......power slowly dropping...bass slowly getting weaker....power steadily dropping........."CLIP" bass stops. 10 seconds later bass starts back up....

And yes I know that my 5 farad capacitor is overkill for my setup. I ordered a 3 farad and they sent me the 5 on accident. My gain, there loss.

 

[aznboi3644]

thats why their are DEEP CYCLE batteries made for car audio use.

How many competitors do you know that are using capacitors??

 

[calisoundmix]

thats why their are DEEP CYCLE batteries made for car audio use.

How many competitors do you know that are using capacitors??

i know of no competitors because the car audio spl scene doesn't interest me.

however from my limited knowledge of car audio competition, people usually install multiple batteries in their car (usually 10+, which gives the amp more than enough available power), and the competition is not too long, i have not heard of any 5+ minute competitions but the difference between running a system hard for a few minutes, and running it hard consistently or longer term makes a big difference in the power needs and the way it needs to be arranged.

for a short term "sound blast" the amp can simply use the power stored in the batteries with no help from the alternator, with thicker than needed wiring this is no problem since the batteries store all the needed power. if you want a system to be bumping for long periods of time and for the music to sound good (see my above post for different people's interpretation of "good" quality) you need a much more constant supply voltage all the time.

also the competitor scene seems to be more interested in the loudest note produced, not how that note sounds acoustically in relation to a full music song, your end goal determines your means.

-regards

 

[98xploder]

a cap does not prevent "power clipping"...lol

care to explain what power clipping is??

Money spent on a cap might as well go in the trash.

do some reading dumbass. im not here to spoonfeed. you obviously dont have experience in the field. i have been building show winning custom car audio setups for the better part of a decade. dont tell me caps dont do ****, i know what im talking about.

 

[98xploder]

thats why their are DEEP CYCLE batteries made for car audio use.

How many competitors do you know that are using capacitors??

"deep cycle batteries still have more resistance than a power cap. meaning, you dont get the power out of the battery as quickly as a capacitor, which is relatively low resistance. think of a camera flash. they use capacitors.. why? because once charged, they can release their energy a LOT faster than a battery. deep cycle or not. you need to dive into some books and actually learn a little bit before opening your mouth and giving bad advice.

btw, people also prefer caps over batteries for the simple fact that they are zero emissions. some batteries give off toxic gases while in operation. gases you dont notice under the hood of your car... but could be potentially harmful in the cabin area. i bet you already knew that though didnt you? just like you knew thats why in the drag racing scene, if you relocate your battery to the trunk, most tracks make sure you are using a battery box that is fully enclosed and has an external vent. do you remember your battery boxes in your setup? or are you losing braincells?

 

[aznboi3644]

w/e...go ahead and waste your money on a capacitor...when your voltage still drops don't come crying back

 

[Infinity08]

This thread got funnier while I was away You guys waste money on external capacitance, I'll purchase better electrical to begin with- one that can keep up with my system without the need for $200 in voodoo magic and homeopathic remedies (look it up, it's the same thing).

 

[calisoundmix]

it's your own choice, while as stated numerous times above that a capacitor will not cure a bad electrical system it does have it's place period, if you can't tell the difference in clarity then lucky you, but for those wanting an audiophile type system (not just lemme annoy the crap outta people and blow my own eardrums with stupid loud subs) which can produce the nuances of any type of music than you either need a capacitor for those peaks, or an amp which can power the peak output of your system PLUS all your car accessories (as in the PCM and various control modules)

you can argue with the laws of physics and electricity all you want but you are not going to change them.

 

[ford freak]

You guys are killin me here. A cap is a worthless peice of marketing junk.....Period! Anyone who says otherwise has no clue what they're talking about. Been in the car stereo game for about 20 yrs or so. Yes I have the experience to say that. Installed at least 500 systems in my life. There is no need for a cap and it will usually hurt the voltage. As for the foul language in this thread...Some of you guys need to grow up and admit that you might not know everything.

 

[ford freak]

Here's someone that gives a real good explanation of the worth of a cap. This person obviously has a grasp on reality and isn't falling for the market hype to rip people off.

After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?

Before you get the truth to any of the above questions, chances are, you've probably spent $100 or more on one of these devices. However, let's study a little history regarding this issue.

A long time ago, in a land far away, 2 elves...Ok, Richard Clark & Wayne Harris (Carsound magazine and the inventor of DB Drag, respectively) separately came up with a solution to preventing their lights from dimming.

WHO WERE THESE GUYZ?

As you may know, Richard Clark is one of the founders of autosound2000 Tech Briefs, Carsound magazine, and a published author of the industry of mobile electronics. In SQ competitions, he posted a record of 1234 1st place finishes, and only ended up NOT 1st in his first event. I've heard that he had minor system problems, but judging by his record, he must have corrected it. (evidently, he needed a Capacitor )

Wayne Harris was previously a leader at Rockford Fosgate in their development. Later, in his free time, he created the organization we call DB DRAG. Wayne was the first SQ World Champion from the organization we know as IASCA (International AutoSound Challenge Association).

Both of these gurus are both legends, and considered the leading experts in the field. During their competition days, both guyz came up with a way to assist in the prevention of voltage drops. In SQ competitions, the look of your system is actually more important than the sound, and having your lights NOT dim under high playing levels is a competitive advantage.

As you may know, amplifiers are made up a bank of little capacitors, resistors, etc. What has been common engineering knowledge is that capacitors store energy, and more or bigger ones assist in balancing the power supply.

Wayne came up with the idea of putting several dozen 'little' (approx 100uF) capacitors on a circuit board to 'extend' the power supplies storage. At about the same time, or shortly afterward, Richard came up with the idea of one huge mondo capacitor (I believe it was 800,000uF or 0.8F) to do the job.

Eventually, Richard won. The large cylindrical tubes won over the complicated 48 caps strapped to a circuit board. However, what did this really accomplish? Let's start here:

WHAT IS A CAPACITOR?

Basically, capacitors are an energy storage device. Large, 1 Farad or more
capacitors store energy (electrons) between their plates. Capacitors differ
from batteries because batteries store energy in the form of chemical
energy--and rely on acid and lead plates, as the place of storage. For a more detailed
description of a capacitor, go here:

http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm

Then on the right hand side, scroll down to CAPACITOR. Keep in mind the use
of capacitors in an audio system.

WHY DO PEOPLE BUY CAPACITORS?

The number 1 reason would have to be because their lights dim when their
system is playing HARD. In car audio, we are told that a capacitor is
designed to prevent the voltage drop associated with your lights dimming.
The number2 reason is that it is rumored to 'improve' sound quality or
'stiffen' the power supply/source.

WHY DO MY LIGHTS DIM?

Headlights brightness is in direct proportion to the source voltage. For
instance, if your car is running, system voltage is ~12.5 -14.4 VOLTS. Your
lights will be much brighter than when your car is turned off--where battery
voltage is ~12V. Most car alternators put out between 75 to 120 amps of
current. When this current draw threshold of the charging system is
exceeded, system voltage will drop as power demands are now shared by the
alternator and the storage devices (battery & cap). We are using battery
reserves beyond this point until the demand lessens

When playing your system really hard. Your lights dim because your
alternator can't keep up it's charging voltage (around 13.5V) and therefore,
demand exceeds output. When this happens, your electronic devices are
dipping into the power storage of the battery. Since the battery stores
power at ~ 12-12.5V, there is a 1.3 to 1.8V drop in voltage available. This
in turn is why your lights dim down.

HOW MUCH POWER DOES A CAPACITOR STORE?

1 Farad = 100 joules or 100W/second
850cca battery = ~2,200,000 farads

For storage purposes, you'd need ~2,200 1 Farad capacitors to equal the energy of your battery.

Due to its impedence (ESR & ESL), a cap's energy is only 50% available. What's worse, is that in order for a 1 Farad cap to discharge, first the alternator output must have maxed out, and the voltage must have dropped around 1.5 volts. But I thought a cap was supposed to prevent that (voltage drop)!!!!!????? Yep, you got the point.


IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP?

My question exactly. Marketing is the reason why people buy caps. In many cases, upgrading wiring will help your system get the maximum transfer of current. Once that has been reached, adding a capacitor may have a minor effect on your system. 50W over the course of a second is not a lot of power considering an amplifier may draw 2000W to put out 1400 watts. Let's look at the situation from a resources standpoint.

Alternator 80 amps
Car accessories (minus stereo) 40 amps
A large Car Audio system (DRAWS ) ~200 amps AT FULL OUTPUT

In this case, you have 240 amps of draw, but only 80 amps of current from the alternator. In your case, you need 160 amps x 12 volts or or let's say 1920 watts of energy. Since a cap stores 50W, how much of a difference do you think it's going to make? A cap is basically a peashooter. W+e need a Howitzer cannon here, to do the job well.

Also, Once a cap is discharged, where does it get it's power from? The alternator, which is already overloaded. Once a cap is discharged, it's worthless. Like SWEZ says, E.The cap already shot its wad, an does limp til rechargedE I’m not so certain I will allow him to babysit my kids, but you get the drift. (I never said it quiet like that... and oh...I'm great with kids!)

SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?

1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..


Please do not try # 6. New hairstyles are always refreshing, but if you are wearing railroad tracks across your teeth, you might have one big filling after it’s over.

HOW CAN CAPACITORS IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY?

They can't. Sound quality is not dependant upon the presence of large bulky 1 Farad capacitors. How many 1 Farad Capacitors do you think the Boston Pops, Aerosmith, or Snoop dog use in the recording studio?

IN A NUTSHELL.......

When Richard, our fearless inventor, became World renown for winning every competition under the sun, people began copying what he did. Soon, every 'serious' competitor had a 'stiffening' capacitor--not to be confused with the 'loosening' capacitor.

WHY?

In the late 80s, people began sticking out their tongue when dunking the basketball because Michael Jordan did. Did sticking out your tongue improve your dunking ability? Same here with adding a capacitor to your electrical system.

STILL A GLUTTON FOR MORE PUNISHMENT?

Here's the Original Cap Debate.

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/Archives...-1-000307.html

Phoenix Gold's marketing guru had just posted information on how their Powercore (basically the Alumapro CAP15 in a Phoenix shell) had both stabilized their voltage and improved the sound quality. Richard called him on it (all in another post) and the marketing geek was unable to quantify any of the conditions that resulted in the voltage being HELD at 14.2V and the 'improved' sound quality.

Please do not read every stinking post as valid. There are a lot of people that have had the efficacy of capacitors inbred to their minds, and were not (and still not) convinced in the futility of a 1 Farad storage device.

In a final note, Richard relayed a quote regarding battcaps ( www.battcap.net ) as, "..The audio industry is the only place i know of where you can publish specs that show your product is useless and still be able to sell them------and whats worse is that technically ignorant people will argue against the math!!!!!!!..............RC.." when referring to the product. This also relates to most digital readout capacitors, and I wish my Archie Bunker skills could have said it better myself.


So.....That being said....A cap is worthless and that money could be much better spent on somethiing like wiring upgrades.

There's always something new a person can learn....Learning that they're wrong can be a tough pill to take.

 

[calisoundmix]

for the third time, i never read any post above where anyone claimed that a capacitor will cure a weak electrical system, i admitted that from my first post, but to deny that capacitors have a place in audio electronics is absurd, i guarantee you if you look inside any of the recording consoles that ANY mainstream artist has recorded on (and some that I have personally worked on) you will find hundred's of capacitors. recording mixer's and sound equipment can not work without capacitors, and many of the most sought after recording consoles go for such high prices (+ $.5 mil) due to the sound quality as a result of the capacitors used and the design in how they are implemented, there is an entire market segment in recording dedicated to emulating the sound of these consoles and equipment and it is rapidly growing.

now a 1 farad capacitor won't do anything to a 4,000 or even 2,000 watt system, and I never claimed it would work with a system of that power, in that case common sense should tell you you need a larger size (and with system's of that high wattage sound quality is usually not the first concern). but to say that capacitor's are a snake oil product would be to deny the use they have in countless pieces of electronic equipment.

if you have the money i would recommend having an alternator with a high enough output to cover at least your entire system and doubling the wire gauge running to your amps (and speakers) to reduce electrical loss, it is costly but there is a difference, just because a competition car whose main purpose is a loud system (not necessarily the "best" sounding one) doesn't mean that his method's apply to all systems. i choose to design mine around sound quality, with sound power a second. and to have studio quality audio you need a hardy reserve of power being delivered at a constant rate, recording studios spend hundred's of thousands on delivering a smooth signal to electronics in the studio.

if you say that capacitor's are useless in car audio fine that is your viewpoint (i never claimed to be a car audio expert, just a pro audio one), but look under the cover of even a mediocre cheap mixer and you should find several capacitors, and the more expensive the mixer gets, the more you find.

 

[ford freak]

Actually if you open up almost any if not every power amp made it will have internal capacitance of it's own. Any add on cap for a system is as you called it nothing more than snake oil. There is no use for them at all. As you stated...A big 3 upgrade is the answer along with a ho alt.

 

[calisoundmix]

yes of course amp's have capacitor's in them, but unless you buy high end ones, they most likely don't have enough, especially cheap knock-off brands. if you install a $7,000 Crown Macrotech Amp in a car of course you have no need for a capacitor, but rarely do car audio amps reach this level of clarity, I'm not saying a system won't work without them, I'm saying a system will sound better with them if you have cheap equipment (and most car audio equipment would be classified as "cheap")

 

[ford freak]

I want you to explain something to me....Since your all about sq. I'm running about 1000 watts and I never get a voltage drop below 14. How in the world is a cap gonna make my system sound better? I'm already pretty much at optimum power from my amps. Does the cap some how make the frequency response better. Do my subs start to play down to 20 hz? Maybe it automatically adds a 24 bit dac??? That would improve sq. But a cap can't improve sq at all. Please explain to me exactly how adding a cap is gonna do any of those things.

 

[ford freak]

Honestly....whoever thinks that caps don't do anything..obviously have not had systems with and without caps. It makes a big difference in better bass response and longer bass notes especially with deeper bass. Also your car battery is not meant to be drained and recharged and drained and recharged its meant to maintain a charge at or above a certain point according to the manufactures specifications.

And its funny when people say that caps are pointless and then they say to add a battery....In reality this is almost the same thing. Obviously a battery will hold more charge. But a cap is storing energy that is waiting to be released when needed. It takes strain off of your battery and alternator by being the first source to drain before the battery and finally the alternator. So yes you could add a battery instead of adding a cap, but your going to spend more money and your going to be doing a little more work to tie it into your system.

Oh and power clipping could be described as this...

Bass hits....not enough power is being produced.....still hitting......power slowly dropping...bass slowly getting weaker....power steadily dropping........."CLIP" bass stops. 10 seconds later bass starts back up....

And yes I know that my 5 farad capacitor is overkill for my setup. I ordered a 3 farad and they sent me the 5 on accident. My gain, there loss.

Your explanation of clipping would actually be a severe voltage drop that sends an amp in to protect. That would most likely be due in part by using a cap. They will only hurt the voltage that an amp sees. Clipping is when someone jacks up their gain thinking it's a volume knob. They force their amp to produce more power than it was designed to produce. Then the amp is producing a clipped signal. Using a DMM or good old common sense when setting gains can eliminate that from happening.

 

[calisoundmix]

sorry for taking so long to get back to you, work's been a little busy today. first of all i severely doubt you never have a voltage drop below 14v, either that or you have a very poor quality multimeter which doesn't refresh that fast. the fact is any sudden rush of current needed will affect your voltage, period.

as for your system, at 1,000 watts you'd be pulling around 75 amps of power (depending on your voltage). so if you have the 130amp alternator it should have no problem driving your system at full volume, the same is true with my system which is why i don't have a capacitor. however for the original poster's system which ran up to at least 2,000 watts he would be pulling over 150 amps of power at peaks which would need some form of capacitance to avoid bottoming out on the peaks.

and also a 24bit DAC (digital to analog converter) will not help with sound quality unless the source was recorded at 24 bit and stayed at 24 bit all the way to you (which is not possible with CD's). Otherwise your precious 24bit DAC will do nothing but replace bits 17-24 with a zero.

as explained earlier a capacitor "smoothes" out the incoming voltage to give the amp as clean and pure a power source as possible, since an amp is nothing more than a switching device, if the supply power is constantly varying than the output signal will share that same variance, not obvious to all, but it is there.

you are correct in assessing uefear's description for an amp sent into protect, although a cap will not be the cause of this, unless the incoming voltage is bad to begin with (which goes back to upgrading your basic electrical system as recommended countless times by now).

clipping is not an amp producing more power than it can produce, clipping is when the waveform is "clipped" on it's peaks. an amp can only produce a signal of a certain amplitude (power), once you crank the gain above this the basic signal stays the same, it just "flatten's" the part of the signal which goes outside the magnitude range it can produce. this isn't as bad for the amp as it is for the speaker, because when the signal is "flattened" you are basically keeping the speaker cone in a stationary position which it doesn't like at all. if these are too severe then magnet's inside the speaker cone can't withstand the heat of a stationary position and melt, there are extremely few speaker's which are designed to withstand this, and none that i am aware of that are outside the pro audio market.

there are numerous pro audio (not car audio) publications out there which will verify this if you do a little searching. i'd do it for you but i have a backlog of customer's today who are paying for my advice.

 

[ford freak]

I'm glad you got back to me. I like a good debate . You gave me the long version of clipping. But a clipped signal will produce more power than most people realize. I realize about the flat peaks. Those flat peaks are the clipped signal. The coils will melt only when you exceed the thermal handling of the driver. Excees heat....too much power.....clipped signal. Take a 100 watt speaker and hook it up to a 50 watt amp. With teh gains maxed out the amp will produce a clipped signal much in excess of the 50 watt rating of the amp. Sometimes 3 or 4 times the amp rating. Power is power. If you have a good power source feeding your amps then it will sound no different with a cap. I thought that's what you initially stated.

I was only using the 24 bit dac as an example but it mesmerizes me that you don't think they make a difference. Or at least not much at all.

As far as the voltage drop what I meant was that the person thought that the cap would fix an existing problem when in fact I believe that the cap only added to it. In that case a big three would work along with a ho alt.

You're never gonna convince me that a cap any worth whatsoever in car audio...Other than the ones that come in an amp already. It has been interesting chatting with you though.

 

[aznboi3644]

a cap will help smooth out some peaks and dips...just nothing big...less than half of a volt

 

[calisoundmix]

I was only using the 24 bit dac as an example but it mesmerizes me that you don't think they make a difference. Or at least not much at all.

DAC quality does make a difference, but if you are playing from a CD which is only recorded at a 16 bit depth (to the cd medium) then you can have a 64 bit DAC and it won't make the signal any cleaner than a high quality 16 bit DAC

i enjoy a good debate as well and i think we see alot closer on some things, i am just **** about audio, i realize not many people can tell the difference, but to me there is. for most people your advice works just as well.