Contaminated brake fluids? Now what?

[gmanpaint]

I need input from those that Know.

2003 XLT 4 door Explorer SOHC.

Here's the skinny.

A General Contractor I work for has purchased a rig for his son for a reliable source of transport. He has a young son of his own he commutes back and forth with, at long distances.

The rig needed a couple of minor repairs, but is in overall great shape with a hair over 100k on the tick. Front brake pads being one of them. That was done with no compressing of the calipers.

One day (week ago) the brake pedal started going soft. So it was checked for leaking fluid, none to be found. The thinking then went to a bad Master Cylinder.

Here's where it gets interesting:
The son took his rig to a local general repair shop to have it looked at. They told him that the master cylinder was going out. They then bled the brakes and told him it was safe to drive, charged him $27, and sent him on his way.

A little while later that day, he was approaching a stop light, the pedal went to the floor. To avoid hitting the stopped vehicle in front of him, he swerved left, ended up crossing the median, going over to oncoming traffic (missed any vehicles coming at him) and was stopped by a Light poles support cable, that tore up one side, and broke the rear glass. Lucky he didn't get nailed by oncoming traffic.

Now the rig was towed to another shop, they claim that the brake fluids were contaminated by something other than brake fluid added to the system and everything needs replaced at a cost of $1,500.00. WTF? Explained to them that it was just bled that day by another shop, and they think whomever bled it, used something other than brake fluids.

A call (followed by a visit) to the 1st shop was made with an inquiry, They now deny doing a bleeding, and say they are being victimized by the owner to use them for an excuse to get a free brake system, and wont discuss any further about this matter. WTF #2

Wanting a 2nd opinion on the complete replacing of everything a call made to a 3rd shop was made. They say that's crazy, just to replace the master cylinder and fluids and call it good.


SO....What do you think?

Replace Fluids & Master Cylinder?

Replace the entire system?

 

[RickM]

If the brake fluid (or whatever foreign substance) was petroleum / mineral based then your looking at replacing/rebuilding everything in the system.....calipers, rubber hoses, seals, Master Cylinder, any other affected components.
Our Exp brake fluid is glycol based and one must be cautious with using the appropriate type and compatible (or acceptable replacement) DOT rated product. For instance DOT 2,3,4 are Glycol based where DOT 5 is Silicone based. If interchanged improperly damage can occur.

 

[mikeinri]

So you're saying that DOT 5 will attack the rubber parts of our Explorer brake systems, but not those of other vehicles?

Please explain...

Mike

 

[RickM]

So you're saying that DOT 5 will attack the rubber parts of our Explorer brake systems, but not those of other vehicles?

Please explain...

Mike

In response to Gmanpaint's specific situation I said "If the brake fluid (or whatever foreign substance) was petroleum / mineral based then you're looking at replacing/rebuilding everything....".

I added: "Our Exp brake fluid is glycol based and one must be cautious with using the appropriate type and compatible (or acceptable replacement) DOT rated product."

Using silicone based, DOT 5 fluid in our brake system ----or any system not designed to use it---- will most likely cause damage as it it not designed to be used with ABS and is not Hygroscopic. This will allow corrosion to take place relatively quickly. Braking will also be compromised as a result of the fluid being more compressible.

 

[EasyRhino]

The problem with contaminated brake fluid (if that is the problem) is that is can cause all of the non-metal parts in the system to degrade, resulting in brake failure. Not something to be taken lightly.

Wheras you might be able to flush out the system for the most part, and that the metal parts might be okay for future use, the resilient parts will no longer be able to be trusted.

If $1500 includes the master cylinder, all four calipers, and the ABS actuator/motor, plus a deep flush of all brake lines and all labor, that is not out of line, as they are expensive parts and a fair amount of labor is needed.

Like with transmissions, different fluids are specified by different manufacturers. In the case of brakes, the critical component is the makeup of the seals in the brake system, whether they are teflon, rubber, buna-n, or one of many different compounds. They do not mix well.

 

[mikeinri]

Wow. Thanks guys.

Hey gman, once you get this fixed, if you can get that poor kid back behind the wheel after dodging traffic like that, take him to an empty parking lot and teach him how to stop by downshifting and using the e-brake. He was extremely lucky to find that pole cable to stop him.

Mike

 

[RickM]

Wow. Thanks guys.

teach him how to stop by downshifting and using the e-brake.
Mike

I'll bet most who have not serviced their Emergency Brake shoes don't realize they're missing or unattached. Bonding issues are apparently a very common problem.

 

[jrford]

Now the rig was towed to another shop, they claim that the brake fluids were contaminated by something other than brake fluid added to the system and everything needs replaced at a cost of $1,500.00. WTF? Explained to them that it was just bled that day by another shop, and they think whomever bled it, used something other than brake fluids.

A call (followed by a visit) to the 1st shop was made with an inquiry, They now deny doing a bleeding, and say they are being victimized by the owner to use them for an excuse to get a free brake system, and wont discuss any further about this matter. WTF #2

I hate to say it but i'm smelling scam.

Same thing happen to my 80 year old aunt. Except it was the dealer whom she bought it off of new and who where the only ones to do any of the maintenance on it. One day she took it in to have the oil changed (same dealer), lost the brakes a few day later. Took it back to the dealer who wanted $1600 to change it all, and of course it wasn't THEIR fault, pay up. Long story short after she pulled all of the receipts got the owner involved did they own up to the problem. My Guess is that the dweb who topped off the oil and fluids eeffed it, who won't at $5 and hour. Or its part of the program and he did what he was told. . .good way to make a quick grand.

With my Aunt what was interesting is the dealer said to call you insurance company, it might be covered under comprehensive (in Michigan it did). The dealer seemed to have experience in that area for some reason. . . but she didn't have to pay a dime even for the rental. Dealer apologized in the end and owned up to their mistake. Took to long to get there.

In your case i'd hope you still have the receipt for the first visit, if not your screwed. . .imho. Or who knows maybe some owners are sabotaging their own system to get that free brake job? To many unanswered questions. . . .

Otherwise, you have to get all of the bad stuff out, flush the lines, and all the rubber seals have to be replaced as they swell there are a bunch of them too.

For this one, i'd might want to look for a junkyard match and grab all its stuff, just make sure the system is still closed. . .

 

[gmanpaint]

Thanks for all the replies everybody! Good stuff posted here today!

I wanted a collective answer/suggestion from the EF family on this matter. You guys sure help by contributing.

What is most concerning is the Father of the person who drives the EX is extremely upset that the shop said it was OK to drive the way it was, and then a little later, an accident occurred, which could have a LOT worse. Now there is body damage to the vehicle that could have been avoided as well. Not to mention the fact that other peoples lives were at risk besides the occupants of the EX.

I don't know how it is all going to be resolved (if ever) but the vehicle needs to be repaired, and finding out what has to be done is a priority.

Sounds like the master, calipers, and O-rings need to be replaced? Is that it?

Thanks in advance everybody

 

[RickM]

Sounds like the master, calipers, and O-rings need to be replaced? Is that it?

Thanks in advance everybody

IMO. you should have it brought to a competent mechanic you trust. They should be able to easily diagnose the situation.

 

[gmanpaint]

IMO. you should have it brought to a competent mechanic you trust. They should be able to easily diagnose the situation.

It has already been to 3 different mechanic shops, and still yet going to a 4th for another opinion.
Not one has gave the same opinion yet.

That's also why this thread exists, for more opinions, not just your reading pleasure.

 

[RickM]

That's also why this thread exists, for more opinions, not just your reading pleasure.

With the info provided only so much guessing can take place on this forum. As you can see, even with a physical inspection, a precise diagnosis is tough.

Unless every component is replaced you run the risk of failure from residual contamination or reusing a piece that is compromised. That's why four shops are giving you four opinions.

Good luck

 

[mikeinri]

Well, since there was a collision involved, I would be taking my receipt (from the original repair) to the insurance company and/or a lawyer.

This forum is great for DIY stuff, but I think you're (well) past that point...

Mike

 

[RickM]

Well, since there was a collision involved, I would be taking my receipt (from the original repair) to the insurance company and/or a lawyer.

This forum is great for DIY stuff, but I think you're (well) past that point...

Mike

Good point(s).....

 

[gmanpaint]

Well, since there was a collision involved, I would be taking my receipt (from the original repair) to the insurance company and/or a lawyer.

This forum is great for DIY stuff, but I think you're (well) past that point...

Mike

Like I had mentioned earlier....Were not sure what is going to become of the situation that led to this. Were just looking for advice on what to do now.

This is not a legal forum, it is a Ford/Explorer forum. The intentions of this thread is just for mechanical purposes. The story that led to this, was told merely for a background pre-cursor leading up to what to do now.

I am not going to get into legalities of this. I do however want sound advice mixed with common sense to the problem at hand. Just like taking the vehicle to multiple shops, I would like multiple people giving their opinion on what they think about the 2 questions asked.


This forum is way more than just DYI. Hang around a few more years and you will learn what it really is about. If you haven't by now, I'm sorry you have missed out on all the wonderful things this forum has to offer.

 

[RickM]

This forum is way more than just DYI. Hang around a few more years and you will learn what it really is about. If you haven't by now, I'm sorry you have missed out on all the wonderful things this forum has to offer.

Interesting comment. I belong to many forums and for many years...I'm sure others here have as well.

 

[gmanpaint]

IMO. you should have it brought to a competent mechanic you trust. They should be able to easily diagnose the situation.

With the info provided only so much guessing can take place on this forum. As you can see, even with a physical inspection, a precise diagnosis is tough.

Unless every component is replaced you run the risk of failure from residual contamination or reusing a piece that is compromised. That's why four shops are giving you four opinions.

Good luck

Which is it? Easily or tough?

 

[RickM]

For a competent mechanic easy. Who you're bringing it to...can't tell..but apparently tough as you're not yet satisfied with any one explanation.

My point is that you or any mechanic may not know the true extent of the damage, especially without knowing what contaminant went into the system. So, to play it safe one may suggest replacing everything while others may guess at what can stay and what needs to be swapped out.

 

[gmanpaint]

Alright,
Since this thread is to help me explain to a person who employees me from time to time, I really have no say in what is going to happen with the decision making for repairs. I am just trying to gather as much information to pass along so he can make the decision.

I thank you for all your input. RickM, you have been more than gracious trying to help, thanks.

I will pass this along and let the choices be made by the owners.