Could an M5R1 live behind a stock 5.0HO?

[377Z]

I have a 1991 4dr XLT 5 spd 4X4. Currently I have 139K and climbing, so I figured I'd start looking into options for a fresh motor (I should have ~170 by the end of this year). I LOVE the 5.0 HO (like in the 87-93 Mustangs), but I will not give up a 5 spd for it. I'm not a fan of the T-5, but my biggest problem is spending $750 for the adapter to the TC alone (assuming they still make it). I'm also not sure of how easy it is making the clutch linkage work. Anyway, since I would pretty much leave the 5.0 stock, I figure at worst the M5R2 can handle it, but I'd like to avoid buying a whole other transmission, then worrying where the shifter will come out (but I will if it comes down to it, I know its been done). I know there are no adaptors, I figured I'd get a 3/8 steel plate and make my own. I've had no problems, and my knowledge, its the original trans (I bought it w/90K). What I might plan on doing (if I end up fabricating an adapter) would be to put the 5.0 in front of the M5R1, see how long it lasts, then when it quits get an M5R2. Sorry for the novel, my question again:

Will/How long will an M5R1 live behind a stock 5.0HO?

Thanks

 

[RiverRat]

What is a M5R1 and a M5R2 out of? If it's behind a 4.0 and you are putting it behind a 5.0 then I'd say it won't last.

 

[Apten]

the Thunderbird SC has the M5R2, in fact I have one in my garage. You can pick them up for under $300 in decent shape.

The M5R2's can handle a bunch of torque. I have seen them hold up to a 330RWHP / 390RWTQ Tbird. The only bad side to them is that they don't shift great, and feel almost notchy.

Brian

 

[Guy Groves]

The M5R2 came on a number of Ford vehicles (Full size Bronco and F150 have a 3.91 1st gear) behind the 5.0. Used ones arn't too expensive, rebuilds are available for about $850.

The M5R1 is a light duty trans for V6 engines. It will not hold up behind a 5.0. Making your own plat adapter won't work. If you do that the transmission input shaft will not fit inside the crankshaft properly, and the hydraulic slave cylinder will not have the proper throwout length.

If you are serious about the 5.0 conversion then:

1) The M5R2 has served me well so far (I currently have a little over 7K on my 5.0 conversion). It will fit without a body lift, BUT you will need to lift the body to get it in, or modify your transmission well.

2) The hydraulics will work with one exception. The M5R2 has slightly different slave cylinder connection fitting than was used on the 91 & 92 Explorer M5R1 trans. All you need to do is replace your hydraulic line with one from a 94 explorer (The later model M5R2 used the same fitting as the M5R2) or from a full size Bronco or F-150. When I did my conversion I coulden't find a good hydraulic line at the junk yard so I broke down and bought one from Ford for $60 (ouch). Bring in your new slave cylinder to make sure you get the right fitting. You will have to bend the hydraulic line to make things fit.

3) The transmission to transfer case adapter made by Advance Adapter ( Full size Ford Trans to BW 1354 T/C #50-4502 ) is also available from Summit Racing at a discount ($355).

4) The shifter location
This is a bit of a problem, but there are some solutions available. The shifter will come up through the floor under the ash tray.
Solutions:
A) Make an compound curve (S shaped) shifter to clear the dash board / ash tray area.
B) Find a good transmission shop with lots of spare parts. Have them look for a a transmission Top Cover from a late model M5R2 (from behind a 4.6 modular V8 that also has the steel shift rail forks - they came from the first F150's with the modular engine.) This will set the shifter back about 2" inches, just enough to clear your ash tray. (This is what I did).

5) You will need to fabricate a new transission cross member, primarily for front drive shaft clearance.


You do have another option - ZF transmission. This is a BIG sucker and is twice the weight of the M5R2. It is also much stronger, has optional power take-off ports, and much lower 5.xx 1st gear. It will require additional transmission well /fire wall modifications to make it fit, and possibly a body lift.


Let me know if you plan on using L&L products for the motor mounts and headers. I have good and bad news.

Guy

 

[377Z]

Guy...

Thanks much, I love hearing from people who have actually done it and are not just guessing. There were a couple threads on this (you detailed your experience in one pretty well I believe) that I printed to keep for reference.

At this point I'm doing research to see if this is for me, I understand it can get quite expensive (the numbers I've seen tossed around are $4-6K). I'm sure it can be done for a good deal cheaper since many of the parts are used, but the phrase 'right time, right place' comes to mind.

My next step is to 'price' out the major components locally--the engine, trans, clutch, radiator (and of course add to it the stuff like the hydraulic line, TC adap., motor mounts, etc.)

 

[DesertSpive]

The max torque output for the M5R1HD is 240 lbft. Notice that the Ranger with the SOHC is rated at 238lbft. Just an observation.

--Sean

 

[james t]

Originally posted by DesertSpive
The max torque output for the M5R1HD is 240 lbft. Notice that the Ranger with the SOHC is rated at 238lbft.

something about that just seems so funny to me. a K&N filter and you're over the tranny's max torque capacity. gotta love it.

 

[Guy Groves]

A word of caution....and I am not trying to discourage you.

The 5.0 conversion is not cheap. I did not scrimp, but I did cut cost as much as I thought practical. It cost me $6200 in the end. I did all my own labor, and manufactured all necessary custom components such as as throttle linkage bracket, transmission bracket, firewall mods, fluid container modifications, and intermediate wire harness.

I could have cut some additional costs, about $300 by using "used" wire harnesses. I did not want to spend the time now or in the futurte dealing with a potentially problematic wire harness so I bought them new.

About the engine...
As a general rule, the less you spend on the core, the more you will spend on a rebuild. If you can do your own this is a great place to save some money.

There is a lot of small stuff that adds up.

It isn't a bad project to do if:
1) You are inclined to do such projects, and enjoy this kind of work.
2) You have some of the basic skills required. You don't have to know how to rebuild an engine unless that's what you plan on doing. Basic mechanic skills, common sense (although my wife would say the opposite), and some patience are all that is required.

If you like I can send you a copy of a spredsheet that has all my components / costs documented.

Guy

 

[377Z]

I definitely agree...

I would appreciate a copy of the spreadsheet; it will serve as a very helpful reference (I'd say the most helpful by far, actually) should I go through with it.

I know too well how costs add up; I have a very clean 1991 Z28 for which I assembled a stroked 350. Nothing exotic or super trick, plus the car came with a 305 so the swap couldn't be more straightforward, and total cost is still around $4k (Well, okay, every part of the motor is new, not rebuilt). And I still haven't bought certain things like headers or upgrade rearend. Argh.

With a 4.0/5.0 swap, obviously its not as straightforward--thats where your spreadsheet will greatly help. Engine work is no problem, the only thing I can't do is machining. Wiring--argh--I hate it but I can do that also (I bought a haltech for the Z28 above & soldered the car's harness to accept either stock or haltech computers), Transmission--unless I got a spectacular deal on a used one, I think I'd splurge on an $850 re-man. I know those are only the major components and the devil is in the details.

If I do this, it will be over a couple months--I'd work weekends and some weeknights, taking my time--I have some body rust in the typical spots and may just decide to buy a newer explorer (~$6K is nothing to sneeze at--I can do mild welding & fabrication, I just don't want the rust to return--I've never seen repairs that last). I'd hate to let this one go, however, since its not all hammered up.

Thanks for all the information you are willing to provide--it is definitely helping me make an informed decision.


Thanks again

Gitas

 

[lonestar]

A v8 conversion with a manual tranny.. finally. THis is what I would like to do when my 4.0 dies. I've already done some research so I know how involved it will be.

Guy Groves, glad someone figured out the shifter problem. Is it a matter of just changing out the cover plate, or do any internals get swapped also. Transplanting the drivetrain of a F150 into a X sounds interesting. I don't believe a F150 came with a 5.0. Since you seem to have some experience, I have a few simple questions.
What did your engione come out of?
Will a M5R2 bolt up to any 5.0, 4.6 or 5.4?
I have seen many talk about the easy swap using a T-bird 5.0 HO, due to low profile, but I would be more interesting in using a truck motor. I guess it would be just a matter of a different cam.

How hard do you think it would be to just transplant the entire F150 drivetrain into a X?
I have seen you post in a couple of conversion threads, but do you have your own thread write up on the board?

I would be interested in the spreadsheet also... You wouldn't happen to have a wiring diagram? or write up explaining how to wire in new computer to existing wiring, lights, ect... Just send me a email if you don;t mind.

Thanks

 

[james t]

the F150 did come with a 5.0... for many, many years.

as far as using all of the drivetrain, im pretty sure you wont be able to use the F150 intake. the truck intake is considerably taller than the X/mustang style, and you would have to use a hood scoop just to be able to close the hood. not alot of clearance in that area on the V8 explo's.

 

[Guy Groves]

Well I've considered writing a bit of a manual about this, but simply havn't bothered yet.

Maby this will induce me to get on with it and write things up. For now here are answers to your questions:

First define what your objective is (My objectives
1)Get my vehicle back on the road at a "reasonable" cost.
2) Maintain Manual Transmission. This is my preference for wheeling and fun driving (I don't like the Auto trans., but they have some nice advantages).
3) Build a reliable engine, starting with a explorer 5.0 or a 91 - 93 TBird / Mustang engine. (I figured an Explorer engine would have the best accessory bracket set up and lower miles so it should be in good shape - no rebuild required)
4) Low end torque were my objectives as I use the vehicle off-road, Not top end HP.


For the questions:
Transmission:
The M5R2 Trans. comes in at least two flavors. One for The older Ford engines like the 5.0, One for the new modular Ford engines like the 4.6L. They have different bell housing bolt patterns and are not interchangeable.

My solution was to use a rebuilt M5R2 for the 5.0 engine. The Transmission shop helped me with the cover plate issue. I was poking around in their shop and said I wanted that transmission, but this other cover plate if possible. I must have run into the right person who took it on as personal challange. Just about everything inside the two versions of the R2 are the same EXCEPT the shift cover plate, and the shift forks. When the Modular engine first appeared the shift forks were identical to the ones found in the older R2 for the 5.0 engine. After about a year or two of production they switched to different shift forks made of aluminum, and they wrapped further around the gear.

With a little hunting through their scrap pile they found the right cover plate and we tried to swap it.... Everything worked out. So now I had an old version R2 trans. with a newer modular engine cover plate. NO internal components were swapped out

2) Forget transplanting the entire F150 drive train. The transfer case is quite a bit larger and will require re-indexing to drop it down, and/or frame modifications. As mentioned earlier in the post Advance Adapters makes an adapter to mount the the BW1354 T/C we have up to a full size ford transmission. All the full size trans. have the same 6 bolt pattern and indexing.

3) The T Bird engine is a good swap candidate. Not because it is lower, but because the accessory brackets / water pump are shorter. Overall engine length can be a problem. There is limited room in the X. In my opinion the Explorer 5.0 is the best candidate because it has the shortest accessory bracket set up, the "truck"Cobra intake manifold, Truck - higher torque cam, and 65mm TB. (If I were to use a mustang or TBird engine I would have wanted to buy these components to meet my objectives of a low torque perfromance engine.

4) Using the Exoplorer engine does require a few simple modifications, assuming you intend to use 91 - 93 EEC IV system.
a) The intake air temp. sender port must be tapped into the lower intake on the #5intake port. There is a "flat" on the manifold for this purpose. It is simply a matter of drilling and tapping a 3/8" pipe fitting here.
b) The electronic iginition on the explorer must be converted to a Distributor ignition system. This means acquiring the right distributor (91-93 Mustang or Tbird roller cam distributor - $50) and a compatable coil ($5 used, $45 new).

Note: The Truck intake manifold does produce better torque, BUT it will not fit into the X without major hood modifications, such as a 4" scoop to add the necessary clearance.

5) I did not want to deal with the hassle and potential problemns of using a "used" wire harness. I purchased the Ford Motorsport Hot Rod Harness kit - Main harness, engine harness, O2 harness, and sensor package.

I will send along my sporeadsheet shortly.

Guy