Ethanol Damage

[acschilling]

Have what I expected to lifters knocking on a cold engine for the better part of three years in my '92 Ex. Always goes away when warmed up. Slight misfires on cold. Runs generally well-but sluggish when warm. Had my mechanic test the oil pressure for me today since absolutely no one had a setup to rent and I spent more time figuring how to piece one together than the the $50 I was charged was worth. Warm 2000rpm was 55 psi with 4 month old Royal Purple. Makes me think the clearances in the bottom are okay - pretty relieved. But I remembered and did some reading on reports of older cars were known to show signs of valve damage when run with E10 and E15. Anybody else know if there is something to this?

 

[trashtruck]

lots of horror stories about ethanol. i know it plays hell on my goldwing

 

[Wolfie_85]

While the Explorer's owner's manual (at least in my '94) claimed that 10% ethanol was safe and the engine was designed to tolerate it, I have heard that it can shorten the life of an engine.

That's not to say it's anything more than just another opinion on a matter that has a mountain of opinions, but with something as old as a first gen Ex, it's probably prudent to avoid, if possible. Or get a fuel additive for ethanol.

I have a car that doesn't do so well with ethanol. Especially in summer months. It's an '88 Oldsmobile. But my 2010 Escape doesn't mind it. My Explorer seemed not to do too badly on it, but I avoided it when I could. It has some corrosive tendencies, and if you don't drive much, it doesn't store well.

 

[acschilling]

I'm not sure the history of them upping the E content in the gases in my area but it seemed to come on rather abruptly since I try and use as high quality oil and critical parts where I can...I have thought about an ethanol additive to the gas but would this have an affect on valve knock or is this permanent damage and am I looking at new heads?

 

[Wolfie_85]

Valve noise in the first gen Explorers is common. They used a softer metal on the rockers and the engine design itself has lower oil flow for the valve train (oil starvation). That's why oil changes and nothing heavier than 5w-30 oil is recommended. If it's just a little ticking, don't worry too much, but the only real fix, if that's your problem, is new rockers.

Another common problem that causes noise is "ping", or "detonation". This can be directly related to gas, but other things cause it. Cleaning your MAF can help it, among other things (ICM, fuel pressure issues). How are your spark plugs and wires doing? Has the fuel filter ever been changed? The engine coolant temp sensor can cause some weird stuff, too.

I would check my plugs and wires, clean the MAF with MAF cleaner, and of you haven't done it, as a good bit of maintenance, replace the fuel filter. Might help with the odd misfires and lack of power to go over these few things. If those aren't it, I would look to that coolant temp sensor. But check for codes before you go buying parts.

 

[acschilling]

Pretty meticulous with maintenance - and just about every sensor has been replaced except things like ICM and CKP...haven't bit the bullet on an ICM since it's fairly expensive although eBay has them about $85ish, but not sure if it would do much. It is susceptible to heat damage over time. When the truck runs for extended periods of time voltmeter climbs to the end of the normal range - have no corrosion anywhere on the battery or alternator but I feel like resistance in the ICM could be going up, up as it gets hotter and hotter causing a loss in performance. Shell gas seems to make it ping the most. Plugs and wires are about 2 yrs old both Motorcraft, coil pack is about 4-5 yrs old. Same with FPR, filter, carbon canister, purge solenoid, etc. It's all pretty new - except the timing sensors.
Did valve cover gaskets last spring and to my surprise I didn't feel any looseness when I pushed down on each rocker.
Knocks cold, pings under load. Still thinking ethanol did damage.

 

[Wolfie_85]

It might have. Mine pinged like crazy. Only thing that made it better was Premium gas. I went through everything. Plugs, wires, new MAF. A new ICM helped. But I've had bad sensors right out of the box, too.

I would try a salvage yard ICM first to see of there's a difference. If the plugs and wires are a couple years old, check for cracks in the wires. I've had that happen, but only once!

 

[wifes2011xlt]

Could be. Ethanol is a pretty good solvent. Been known to clean out gunk that has accumulated in fuel tanks, lines, carburetors, etc causing clogs. Some gaskets and fuel lines are weakened by ethanol.

 

[natenkiki2004]

Mine has similar symptoms. Might just be age of the engine, not so stellar oil changes or just bad gas supply. I have to feed mine Premium ethanol-free otherwise it will ping. Most all my sensors are new, no vacuum leaks, new gaskets, swapped ICMs, new plugs & wires, new injectors... no difference.

 

[Rhett]

Did valve cover gaskets last spring and to my surprise I didn't feel any looseness when I pushed down on each rocker.
Knocks cold, pings under load. Still thinking ethanol did damage.

I don't know if it has been mentioned -- it was mentioned the other day in another thread -- but trans fluid in your intake charge can lower your octane enough to cause pinging.

Trans fluid would usually get in via the vac line due to a faulty vacuum modulator on the transmission.

 

[malohnes]

I run alcohol/water injection and so far no real issues. While not the same as E85 in fuel lines for sure, as our trucks can have issues with seals as mentioned.

Our trucks do have a tendency to be sensitive to bad fuel and lower octane but that's usually more related to poor mileage/performance as opposed to reliability/longevity. I've heard lots of stories that claim bad and no difference and few solid good comments other than positive octane with E85.

 

[acschilling]

I decided for a tune up this morning - Motorcraft coppers because they supposedly conduct the best of the metals. Old ones said Motorcraft Platinum. Air filter. I sprayed each combustion with five 1 second squirts of Deep Creep and will see what happens..haven't started it yet since its only been a few hours. Old plugs were on what seemed to be mostly showing white, running hot type wear.

 

[jd4242]

You can just push down on your rockers and expect them to move,if they do then you have serious issues ..you need to pull the rocker arms off and look at the tips..also the lifters clog very easy as they dont have oil holes to feed the pushrods and upper valve train..

I highly doubt ethanol damaged your valves.ethanol doesnt have as bad of effects as many think and the effects arnt all to blame on ethanol. .ethanol cleans all the crap that is left behind by gasoline and dirty storage tanks/your gas tank..this junk is then sucked up and into filters and injectors ..if you have clean ethanol or clean tanks this dont happen. .also ethanol absorbs water..when left for long times the water corrodes,gels or rust things up..

 

[acschilling]

Any chance this is actually timing chain slap when it's cold? Takes about 15-20 seconds to start tapping after ignition - starts soft tapping then becomes stiffer UNTIL it'll suddenly STOP for another brief period of time; repeating in consistent intervals, repeating until it's warmed up and gently goes away. Could this be chain slapping until it adjusts itself and then starts sliding again? I wish I knew how all the mechanics and engineering worked together so I didn't have to ask so many ridiculous questions. Could be related to the sad low end performance, and mileage?

I'm just puzzled as to why it starts and stops tapping if there were a bent rob or punched out rocker arm. Seems there would be constant metal on metal bumping. Why would a lifter not tap after ignition...start tapping...suddenly STOP..then repeat dozens of times until warm? Could valves act in such a way? Can they seat properly, then not, then back to proper?

So sorry everyone! Just want to figure out that G-D tap!

Would be dumb to spend the $$ on a top end if it's the chain and vice versa.

 

[jd4242]

Sounds to me like a clogged lifter..they can build pressure and leak pressure ..

Id start with the rockers and pushrods..it will cost you a upper manifold gasket and valve cover gasket to check the rockers..once off it should be very clear if thats your problem or not...if one is damaged wayyy more than others, usually will mean a bad lifter..heads have to come off for that...

Id add some seafome or a qt of atf to the oil and let it run for 15mins or so and change my oil..that ""should"" flush the lifters out some..

 

[natenkiki2004]

The way the chain system is designed, you'd have to have physical damage to the tensioner. It's a ratcheting oil pressure type. Meaning, it tightens while the engine is running with full oil pressure and there's teeth to retain the tension. As long as the tensioner is working, you could drain the oil & run the engine and observe no timing changes/slop, at least until it throws a rod out the side

As much as I don't want to admit it, mine has a cold tap that's different from the valvetrain. It's more internal but isn't down low like a rod. The cylinders and rod bearings looked good when I took a peek. Considering these engines have top end oiling issues, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some excessive cam bearing wear or something like that. When warm, the engine is perfectly quiet. Minor amount of valvetrain tapping under load with high rpm when warm.

Unless you're willing to pull the engine and do a full tear down, you may not know what's going on. My advice is what I'm going to follow; run it till it blows. Don't abuse it but just realize that it's an older engine and it will die some day. If you really want to keep the vehicle, find another engine and work on rebuilding it so that when yours does croak, you swap it over. You should have plenty of time between now and then.

 

[malohnes]

Sounds to me like a clogged lifter..they can build pressure and leak pressure ..

Id start with the rockers and pushrods..it will cost you a upper manifold gasket and valve cover gasket to check the rockers..once off it should be very clear if thats your problem or not...if one is damaged wayyy more than others, usually will mean a bad lifter..heads have to come off for that...

Id add some seafome or a qt of atf to the oil and let it run for 15mins or so and change my oil..that ""should"" flush the lifters out some..

Before I rebuilt my top end a couple years back, I drained all my engine oil after it was fully warmed and replaced it with straight atf. Started it up and ran it for a minute to fully circulate. Then left it sit over night. By the time I got to my lifters they came apart easily and I had lots of clean parts.

I simply drained the atf, swapped filters and ran my usual synthetic oil it until next oil change.

 

[Josh P]

My van gets better mileage on E85. If there is a semi truck wrecking yard near you, the older trucks had mechanical gauges. I spent $5 for a gauge and used an ice maker kit from home depot to hook it up.

 

[jd4242]

My van gets better mileage on E85. If there is a semi truck wrecking yard near you, the older trucks had mechanical gauges. I spent $5 for a gauge and used an ice maker kit from home depot to hook it up.

Hmm its normally the opposite. .E85 take like 30% more fuel than gasoline

 

[Josh P]

Hmm its normally the opposite. .E85 take like 30% more fuel than gasoline

I was working for a few months in Oklahoma city, the trip home to phoenix or out to OK city, I ran it several times with regular and E85. Each time the E85 did better by .5 to .8 mpg over the regular gas. I know my aerostar was never designed to run it but I have had positive results.