Hedman Headers

[Alec]

Hedman recently started producing headers for later model Explorers with the V6. For those of you with Hedmans, do you like them? Any problems, etc? I want to get part #89610 with the ceramic coating. I've been quoted $370 at two separate places, then I'm going to have them installed, I just don't have the time to do it myself.

When I order them, do I also have to order gaskets and stuff seperately, or does the kit come with all that stuff? It's too late to call them now, maybe y'all can give me an answer before they can

 

[flyguy]

Here is what I heard... they come with gaskets.. although they are very poor gaskets... and you should probably buy your own. they are not very expensive... also I heard somthing about being able to seal the hedman gaskets with something...

nick

 

[AaronE19]

Alec-
I hope this thread will be useful in making your decision: Dead Link Removed

bear in mind that the part Jay and I have bought is the $180, unfinished (nearly, they're only painted flat black and it burns off within a few minutes), bargain header from Summit and you may be happier with the one you're considering than I was with mine when I wrote the replies to that thread.

the kits typically include the head pipes, y-pipe, and gaskets for both. you will need to get a y-pipe to catalytic gasket from the auto parts store because it won't come with the kit. one thing you might want to clarify with either Truckperformance or Hedman is what material the gaskets that come with the kit are made of. stamped cardboard is what Jay and I recieved with ours. if this is the case with your kit I'd follow the recommendations that were made in the thread above. Nick seems to have found some aftermarket gaskets, which I was unable to do (are you sure they're the right head pipe diameter Nick? 1 1/2") but maybe he can help you out with tracking them down.

hope this helps you out

Aaron

 

[Alec]

Thanks for the help, everyone. I think I'm definately going to go ahead and buy the Hedmans. Just a few more questions, though. Where should I buy these gaskets and what do I have to know when I buy them? And also what is the RTV coating stuff that someone mentioned for the gaskets?

Thanks again,
Alec

 

[AaronE19]

Alec-
Nick'll have to handle the aftermarket gasket question, since I couldn't find any. what you need to know when you do buy them is: what motor you have (bolt pattern), what the header flange looks like (the shape of it so that you don't buy a gasket that's smaller than the flange itself), and what the individual header pipe diameter is (1 1/2" on my set). if you're buying aftermarket collector gaskets (which are easy to find and highly recommended as far as I'm concerned) you need to know the y-pipe diameter (usually 2 1/2"), the bolt pattern is universal. I think all you'd need to say to a local speed shop is "I've got a whatever-year explorer with the 4.0L and I'm putting on Hedman headers, can you get me gaskets?" they should be able to give you an answer, but it'd be useful to know that other stuff.

the only time you need to use a sealant is when your only option is the crappy head pipe gaskets that come with the kit. then you coat them in RTV (high-temperature silicone adhesive that you can find in tubes at almost any store, get the copper kind that's rated to 2000 degrees or some insane thing like that) and let it cure about 1/2 way before installing the gaskets. you'll still need different collector gaskets, because the RTV trick doesn't work too well with them.

 

[flyguy]

I got the Y pipe gasket from carparts... but now you guys are doubting my header gaskets...i better go check... okay... ive got them in front of me... they are cardboard on one side and metal on the other... they look about 1 1/2 inch.. although I havent tried them because my hedmans are not in yet. Anyways.. i ordered everything from Carparts...

oh by the way.. is it normal for the stock headers not to have gaskets???

nick

 

[AaronE19]

Nick-
I dunno, maybe someone else can tell you for sure about this, but I think as long as the gaskets you have are big enough to cover the flange on the Hedman's you'll be alright (you can always trim them back to fit). and no, it isn't normal to not have gaskets on the stock manifolds. are you sure they're not still stuck to the block or the manifolds themselves? if I remember right, mine were metallic and being as old as they were it was hard to tell them from anything else. oh yeah, be sure to sand the surface of the block around the exhaust ports real well... no leftover gasket crap or rust or anything. while you're at it, run some sandpaper over the header flanges when you get them (just rough them up a little), this helps the gaskets "bite" a little better. did you pick up collector gaskets too?

A

 

[flyguy]

okay...what are collector gaskets??? I cunfuuuused!!

nick

 

[AaronE19]

your typical header kit is 3 separate pieces, the two sets of header pipes (one for each side of the motor) and a y-pipe. you already have gaskets for the flanges where the header pipes meet the block and for the flange where the y-pipe finally meets the cat. the collectors are where the head pipes converge into one and meet the y-pipe. the collector gaskets go between the y-pipe and each header.

go to http://www.carparts.com/parts/newse...2&parttypeid=3048&itemid=495&autoidsearch=YES and check out what I mean (hope that link works).

does that help at all?

Aaron

 

[flyguy]

heh... I think thats what I ordered then.. the collector gasket... but anyways..i think im going to pay for someone to put these on. I dont wanna tear into it again...sigh..

nick

 

[niceguy]

stock exhaust gaskets

My '94 XLT OHV did NOT have exhaust manifold gaskets. The Haynes manual (or was it the Felpro instruction sheet?) specifically states that these motors may come from the factory withOUT these gaskets, but that it's OK to install them if you want... I'm curious why some (like Aaron's) have 'em, and others don't?

 

[flyguy]

Overheard from the Ford factory...

"Hey boss... we ran outta gaskets for dem there headers... should we get some more?"

"Nah, who needs em? It will just weigh down that SUV!"

 

[AaronE19]

answer to the "some have gaskets, others don't" question...

throughout the course of two years of working on this vehicle I have come to the following conclusion: my truck is just plain weird. seriously, every time I work on it something utterly strange presents itself (i.e., there is no EGR on my '93... not that I'm complaining, it's just strange). I was really curious about this whole metal-to-metal manifold issue and so I stopped by the dealership this morning on my way in to see if they had replacement gaskets... sure enough, their computer showed the factory setup to be without 'em. I suppose it could be that the previous owner of my vehicle had to have them off for some reason and the gaskets I removed when I put the headers on were from a previous repair job. who knows?

anyway, I've been told by nearly every parts guy in town and at Hedman... yadda, yadda... that using gaskets designed to fit the factory manifolds won't work with headers. I couldn't imagine why then and I still don't quite get the picture (the bolt pattern and exhaust port size are the SAME whether you have headers or manifolds because it's ON YOUR ENGINE BLOCK... WTF?). I don't know, the only thing I can think of is that it has to do with the header flange being a different shape than the factory manifold (*sigh*). I was just trying to save some people from potentially large and expensive headaches... plus I'm trying to see how many threads I can set en fuego this week (kidding)

this question sounds like SteveVB or mrboyle's domain, it seems they are the mechanical mac-daddys around these parts. so, if either of you happen to stop by this thread... please enlighten us fledgeling motorheads.

Aaron

 

[kvo]

Hey Alec -

Hook Em Horns!!! Good to see another member from UT. I'm an alum of Texas also. Went to UT from '84 -'89 and received my BSCE there in '89. It's a great town but it sure is congested now, compare to what it was in '84.

Anyway, hope your purchase and installation panned out.

 

[niceguy]

those mystery gaskets

AaronE19 wrote - "I don't know, the only thing I can think of is that it has to do with the header flange being a different shape than the factory manifold (*sigh*)."

I think this is the key. Header flanges (and header construction) being what they are, are prone to warping, which leads to poor gasket sealing and eventual leaking. You'll note that some higher-quality ($$$) headers will boast about thicker flange material, supposedly to reduce warpage/leaking. Some headers have one long flange for the three (or four) tubes, while others will have individual flanges for each pipe. On headers with one long flange, some guys will take a hacksaw to the flanges, and saw between the tubes - in effect making individual flanges for each pipe - in an effort to reduce the warping effect and leaking. I can't attest as to whether or not this actually works...

The bulky casting of a stock exhaust manifold effectively thwarts this kind of leaking problem. Apparently so well that they don't need gaskets at all.

FWIW, leaking headers are a bad thing. Not only noisy and stinky, but a bad enough leak near your exhaust port will promote burned exhaust valves in those cylinders. And THAT is an expensive hassle.

Bottom line (as you have noted) is that the cheap cardboard gaskets just may not cut it. You've had your headers for awhile - have you had any leaking problems? Did you use the cardboard gaskets, or did you find a beefier alternative?

 

[AaronE19]

Niceguy-
thanks for the input & info.
ohhhh yes, I've had leaking problems. I, like an idiot, used the ones that came with the kit and didn't coat them or anything. they were fine for the first 100 miles or so, then came the tick-tick-tick of leaking head pipe gaskets. so, I retorqued (after having torqued at install, started the motor and let it warm up, and retorqueing when it cooled), only to have the leak return in a matter of days in spectacular fashion. at that point I knew they were blown and sought out a more durable substitute. however, those efforts proved to be utterly fruitless. fortunately, Jay clued me in to the RTV trick (saved by this site again, go fig ) and he apparantly has had excellent luck with it. they have been leaking like that for a while now and, although I know what kind of damage it can cause, I've been unable to set time aside to remedy the situation (been on the road most of the summer). it really got fun when the collectors went last week... yeah, she sounds like one high-po'd lawnmower right now. I can acutally hear air hitting the firewall when I get on the gas. I hate it when stuff like this happens in the summer... there are always people out and around on the street and you wouldn't believe the looks I get from having all that flatulence spouting from such a little truck.

anyway, tomorrow and sunday I'll be replacing the head pipe and collector gaskets (cardboard from Hedman using the RTV trick, and copper from the local speed shop, respectively), and tossing on some thermo insulation (plus doing about a million other jobs), so I'll let you know how everything turns out. (it may be a while, I'm out of town again as of sunday night) I may try that cutting the flange trick, since I'm sick and tired of mucking with this job. but if anyone happens to know this procedure to be catastrophic for some reason, please drop a line in this thread.

...as usual, wishing I'd just spent the 5 bills on JBA's to start with. I'm sure I've got at least that much into it already with parts, time and frustration. never seem to learn my lesson with performance add-ons (replacement parts are another matter... high-end all the way).

sorry for running at the mouth here guys.

Aaron

 

[flyguy]

okay... i think i understand... so you have to obtain gaskets that fit the hedmans... not just your engine.. correct? I havnent installed my hedmans yet and want to know what you guys think I should do. Will the local muffler shop have gaskets? Or is my only option the RTV? Hmmm... im probably going to have someone else do the work... but i want to make sure it gets done right...

nick

 

[AaronE19]

I've looked for other gaskets without any success so I think the ones that come with the kit are the only option you have, and Jay seemed to think the RTV trick was the way to go. local muffler shop will probably not have anything that will work. look at the link that's farther up the thread, in it are all the things are necessary to make you most satisfied with the install & performance of this part (the post is like the 13th one down). then only thing to add to that is wrapping your headers in some thermo-crap. it is waaaaay hot under my hood and doing it'll help you even more since you have a KKM... you don't want to make all these nice performance mods and have your motor sucking hot air.

I'd also send the collector gaskets you got back and get some aluminum or copper ones instead. did you ever figure out what you've got? the collector gaskets are just sorta triangular shaped disks with one big hole in the middle (2 1/2") and three holes for bolts. the header gaskets are long and skinny with three 1 1/2" holes in them and 6 bolt holes.

Aaron

 

[flyguy]

okay... i got the stock header gaskets... which I guess ill find something creative to do with... and I guess I got the collector gasket... its got a big oval hold... 3 screws... and kinda is in the shape of a triangle... but has closer to 5 corners... it kinda looks like a house. heh. but I thought I was getting the Y pipe gasket... I dunno. I cunfused!

nick

 

[AaronE19]

okay, what you've got in your hand with the oval hole that looks like a house is the y-pipe to cat gasket. you'll need that because it doesn't come with your header kit. what you need to pick up is (this is in that thread I mentioned earlier):

1) one or two tubes of copper (orange) RTV silicone sealant for your header gaskets... coat them, let it cure about 1/2 way, and install them.

2) one set of 2 1/2" copper or aluminum collector gaskets (the triangle ones I mentioned, get 'em at the nearest parts joint, there are two of them in a set... one for each side of the y-pipe). you (or your mechanic) may need to enlarge the 3 holes to accomodate the bolts that come with the kit

3) two cans of hi-temp engine paint because the finish on your headers will come off within five minutes

---OR---

3) a package of thermo-cool-tape-crap-stuff to wrap your headers in plus a can of their sealer stuff so that it doesn't rot (read what's on the box)

4) a dremel tool to de-burr all those sh***y welds they make at the factory

5) a piece of paper with the torque specs for all this stuff to remind your mechanic that you're paying attention, plus a little reminder to him to simply FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS THAT COME WITH THE KIT (with respect to torqueing, warming the motor up, and retorqueing as mentioned above).

does that help?

Aaron

[Edited by AaronE19 on 07-28-2000 at 09:41 AM]