How can you tell if the ball joints are bad?

[Black Mammoth]

So I had my wife take the Explorer in to a tire shop to get an alignment. They told her that there was too much vertical movement to put it back in to alignment. They said the lower ball joints are bad.

So I decided to put the car up to see what else I should replace. I thought I would also try to verify that the ball joints were bad. So I put the car up on jack stands. Then I pulled the wheel in all kinds of directions without any movement. Also, the ball joints don't show any signs of leakage. I know I may not see anything if the grease is all used up, but I thought I would see something.

I do know that I have negative camber wear on my tires. The inside of the tires almost bald. The Explorer has 83k miles on it with original tires and ball joints.

What do you guys think? I just hate replacing parts if they are fine. I guess I can spend more money taking it somewhere else and see what they say.

Thanks

 

[gensic11]

I had this problem as well but mine was very noticeable.. My steering wheel actually felt a little shaky while driving.. it was pretty evident that my joints were too bad for an alignment. If you don't feel any movement or hear any akward front end noise AND you had it lifted and shook the tire to check for movement and there was none.. then it's a little hard to believe your joints are bad. It is still a good idea to have them replaced because sooner or later they will need it (considering the mileage). I understand you shouldnt fix it if it's not broke but the mechanic might be able to see somethign that you can't. I would get it checked for a second opinion though. My lower ball joints plus alignment cost around 350$ or less I believe.. It's worth getting it done, hope this helps


Josh

 

[Black Mammoth]

Thanks. I haven't heard anything nor does anything move. However, my wife said the vibration has gotten worse. I just assumed it was because the tires were so old and cupped. Like I said it has too much negative camber.

Yeah, these people wanted $550 including the alignment (normally $60). So I told them no. I will try doing it myself. Worst case I'll take it to someone else. $550 is way too much...$60 for parts, $60 for an alignment. OK double the parts for profit. So $180 in parts & alignment leaves $370 for labor. So that's nearly 5 hours of labor for lower ball joints. Way too much IMHO.

Thanks for your input

 

[IZwack]

why do u have so much negative camber? did you to un-twist the torsion bar bolts to try to lower ur explorer?

also, do u have excess negative camber on both front wheels? or just one?

just as an FYI: the camber on the 2nd generation explorers are not adjustable with the stock parts that came with ur explorer.

one of the most common symptoms of a ball joint going bad is a 'groan' or a 'grunt' from the front end when you are turning left or right at low speeds.. such as when ur parking at the club to get ur groove on

if it is the lower ball joint thats whacked out, u can probably replace both in 3-4 hrs (since it sounds like uve never done one before).. all you really need is a ball joint press (you can either buy one for like $40-$50 or you can borrow one from you local Advanced Auto parts store).. the ball joints themselves aren't very expensive (buy the Moog brand, they have grease zerk fittings on them so you can regrease.. $27 from RockAuto, part #K8695T).. no other "specialized" tools is necessary, just have a set of wrenches, sockets, and pliers (the bottom nut on the lower ball joint is castellated and ull need pliers to pull the security pin out.. and the bottom nut is also somewhat large - somewhere around 1" but i forget the exact size)..

EDIT: found this guy who also lives there in VA who's selling lower Moog joints for $18 shipped:
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141224

 

[spta97]

why do u have so much negative camber? did you to un-twist the torsion bar bolts to try to lower ur explorer?

also, do u have excess negative camber on both front wheels? or just one?

just as an FYI: the camber on the 2nd generation explorers are not adjustable with the stock parts that came with ur explorer.

one of the most common symptoms of a ball joint going bad is a 'groan' or a 'grunt' from the front end when you are turning left or right at low speeds.. such as when ur parking at the club to get ur groove on

if it is the lower ball joint thats whacked out, u can probably replace both in 3-4 hrs (since it sounds like uve never done one before).. all you really need is a ball joint press (you can either buy one for like $40-$50 or you can borrow one from you local Advanced Auto parts store).. the ball joints themselves aren't very expensive (buy the Moog brand, they have grease zerk fittings on them so you can regrease.. $27 from RockAuto, part #K8695T).. no other "specialized" tools is necessary, just have a set of wrenches, sockets, and pliers (the bottom nut on the lower ball joint is castellated and ull need pliers to pull the security pin out.. and the bottom nut is also somewhat large - somewhere around 1" but i forget the exact size)..

EDIT: found this guy who also lives there in VA who's selling lower Moog joints for $18 shipped:
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141224

I've got what I would describe as a groaning when I am making right turns at low speeds. Does that sould like the lower ball joints? I had jacked up the truck previously but the wheel movement was mabey 1/4" in each direction - I figured that was normal. Does it sound like I need new ball joints????

Thanks..

 

[IZwack]

when I am making right turns at low speeds.

were u turning into the club to get ur groove on?

I've got what I would describe as a groaning... Does that sould like the lower ball joints?

yeah lower ball joints or uppers ball joints.. i think, and some1 please correct me if im wrong, that the upper joints usually go bad before the lower joints (the uppers are physically smaller than the lowers).. or at least thats how it went for me (the uppers went bad before the lowers, but the lowers also went bad in a short time after i replaced the uppers.. woo that was confusing). the upper joints are also integrated into the upper A-arm.. so if u want to replace the upper joint, ud have to buy the entire A-arm assembly (which means that the part costs more). if u decide to replace the upper A-arm yourself, do a search on the message board, this has been covered many times (just dont forget to mark where the camber nuts/bolts are located before you unbolt em.. this will hopefully prevent u from having to get an alignment afterwards.. tho it probably is a good idea to get alignment after an A-arm swap, but its up to u).

I had jacked up the truck previously but the wheel movement was mabey 1/4" in each direction - I figured that was normal.

was this straight 1/4" up and down or back and forth movement? because there's also the inner and outter tie rods that will allow the wheel to "steer" from the passenger side to the driver's side and visa versa. the inner and outter tie rods also have ball joints that, in time, goes bad

 

[Diddy74]

I also have ball joint and tie rod issuses,and probably more. I hit a bump or irregularity
the steering kick is tremendous and im bouncing all over the road. The whole body shakes and vibrates Good question is do I also have to replace the whole upper control arm if the upper ball joints are bad? What about tie rods?
What would be reasonable cost for parts and labor etc.

 

[Black Mammoth]

why do u have so much negative camber? did you to un-twist the torsion bar bolts to try to lower ur explorer?

also, do u have excess negative camber on both front wheels? or just one?

just as an FYI: the camber on the 2nd generation explorers are not adjustable with the stock parts that came with ur explorer.

Thanks for writing me back. I'm not sure why I have so much negative camber. I would think that the ball joints could cause this. The Explorer is completely stock and has never been in an accident. The guy at the shop was saying that I might need a caster-toe kit to put it back in alignment. I don't see why that would be the case. It hasn't been modified. It should be simple as replacing the bad parts.

I rotate the tires, so they all have wear on the inside of the tire. So I'm not sure if it is just one or not. The other thing is that the car doesn't pull to one side. It's actually fairly straight.

 

[IZwack]

question is do I also have to replace the whole upper control arm if the upper ball joints are bad?

yeah

What about tie rods?

well first check to see if they are bad... without going into too much detail, teh general idea is to jack the front up (jack stand supported), have some1 else hold the steering wheel still, and turn both front wheels left to right by hand to see if theres any play.

What would be reasonable cost for parts and labor etc.

sorry no idea on this.. ive kinda done the ball replacement at home.

 

[IZwack]

Thanks for writing me back. I'm not sure why I have so much negative camber. I would think that the ball joints could cause this. The Explorer is completely stock and has never been in an accident. The guy at the shop was saying that I might need a caster-toe kit to put it back in alignment. I don't see why that would be the case. It hasn't been modified. It should be simple as replacing the bad parts.

I rotate the tires, so they all have wear on the inside of the tire. So I'm not sure if it is just one or not. The other thing is that the car doesn't pull to one side. It's actually fairly straight.

well dunno if bad ball joints will cause severe negative camber cauz that would mean a lot of metal thats been shaved off at the joint. do you hear any grunts or anything when u turn at low speeds? if not, then i'll probably lean more towards the idea that perhaps ur torsion bars have just gone soft (and now the front end is probably sitting lower than where it should be at). try twisting them up, it wont cost u a dime. i was also thinking that maybe the steering knuckle assembly was bent but for both steering knuckle to bend is very unlikely.

 

[etc]

I paid about $300-$350 on parts for upper/lower balljoints and outer tie rods.

When I shopped around shops they were quoting, $600-$700 dollars to do the work(with parts).

 

[Ray Lobato]

Black Mammoth, You have 83K on the original tires and balljoints, That's really good, but I would bet that you do need to replace the ball joints.
The lowers are a piece of cake to replace, and you really don't need a press to replace them, just a BFH. Remember that there is a C-Clip that holds it on, that has to be removed before you can bang them out (with the BFH). You can use a very large deep set socket that will go around and over the joint end and bang it back into the A-arm. Put the new C-clip on it and put the rest of the stuff back on. There is a write up on how to change the Ball joints somewhere in the "Useful Threads" forum. Read it, and do it yourself. The first side will probably take you an hour. The second side will take a lot less time.

 

[Black Mammoth]

Black Mammoth, You have 83K on the original tires and balljoints, That's really good, but I would bet that you do need to replace the ball joints.
The lowers are a piece of cake to replace, and you really don't need a press to replace them, just a BFH. Remember that there is a C-Clip that holds it on, that has to be removed before you can bang them out (with the BFH). You can use a very large deep set socket that will go around and over the joint end and bang it back into the A-arm. Put the new C-clip on it and put the rest of the stuff back on. There is a write up on how to change the Ball joints somewhere in the "Useful Threads" forum. Read it, and do it yourself. The first side will probably take you an hour. The second side will take a lot less time.

Thanks Ray. I was a little nervous about trying to press them out. I will defintely read and memorize that thread for this weekend. What is your thought on the negative camber? Why would it all of sudden be way out? Someone mention trying to twist the torsion bar back up. Do you think I would do more harm than good on that? I'm completely baffled on the camber issue. On every car I had...if the camber was off...something needs to be replaced (ie control arm). It doesn't seem like anything can be done...maybe replace the torsion bar? Where can I get a kit to fix the camber? Rockauto only had them for 2wd Explorers.

Thanks

 

[IZwack]

Someone mention trying to twist the torsion bar back up.

Tis I young Robin.. ahaha oh SNAP!

Do you think I would do more harm than good on that?

Per say, u cant really harm much with just bit of twist. I mean just dont break the bolt or anything (which can happen if the bolt is ill)..

On every car I had...if the camber was off...something needs to be replaced (ie control arm).

That is my thought too, but for both sides to be off, my guess is that its not just a bent part unless u i dunno, jumped ur explorer over a concrete ditch..

maybe replace the torsion bar?

Torsion bars arent cheap and takes time.. so maybe try twisting the bolts first and see how it goes.. many of us have twisted these bars to get some lift and, well at least mine, hasnt broken anything yet.

Where can I get a kit to fix the camber?

i would first try something else other than camber adjusters (cauz i think this will just mask the problem).. but if u decide on camber adjusting bolts, i found a set a long time ago at Napa, there's also another place that sells em but I forget where. But there are actually two types of camber ajusting bolts, one is completely round and the other has this flat spot on one side.. try to get the one that is completely round cauz that will actually give u more angle adjustment than the one with the flat spot.. sadly, the one from Nappa has the flat spot in it.. the Napa part number is 'NCP2642979' .. search the Napa website for that part.

Remember that there is a C-Clip that holds it on, that has to be removed

Oh SNAP again! I forgot to mention that C-clip earlier.. thanks Mr. Lobato

 

[Ray Lobato]

Replacing the torsion bars is NOT going to do anything, except lighten your wallet.
Go and get the camber adjusters. I don't know why you would have negative camber, if your truck is stock. Have you done a torsion bar twist? Also I don't believe that the lower ball joints would cause the negative camber, but the upper ball joints will.
Any more questions, just give us a holler.

 

[spta97]

were u turning into the club to get ur groove on?

Nope, turing into the Home Depot to get my Home Improvement on

yeah lower ball joints or uppers ball joints.. i think, and some1 please correct me if im wrong, that the upper joints usually go bad before the lower joints (the uppers are physically smaller than the lowers).. or at least thats how it went for me (the uppers went bad before the lowers, but the lowers also went bad in a short time after i replaced the uppers.. woo that was confusing). the upper joints are also integrated into the upper A-arm.. so if u want to replace the upper joint, ud have to buy the entire A-arm assembly (which means that the part costs more). if u decide to replace the upper A-arm yourself, do a search on the message board, this has been covered many times (just dont forget to mark where the camber nuts/bolts are located before you unbolt em.. this will hopefully prevent u from having to get an alignment afterwards.. tho it probably is a good idea to get alignment after an A-arm swap, but its up to u).

Hmm...I've only got about 45k on my X. Not that the joints can't go bad but it is just a sound I hear...tires wear normally and it drives fine so perhaps I can get some more miles before I replace?

was this straight 1/4" up and down or back and forth movement? because there's also the inner and outter tie rods that will allow the wheel to "steer" from the passenger side to the driver's side and visa versa. the inner and outter tie rods also have ball joints that, in time, goes bad

Looking at my tires strait on, I put my hands at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock. Pulled and pushed alternating from top to bottom. I also did the same at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock. I'm not sure if the 1/4" was an exact measurement (could have been less) but the tire had some movement. It was not dead solid like it was on the ground.

Thanks for the reply.