Huge Electrical Nightmare

[DriverBL]

Huge Electrical Nightmare [resolved]

Okay, here is a fun 'little' problem for all those of you who are exceptionally electrically inclined... (sorry in advance for how long it is)

I have a 2002 Explorer XLT stock 4.0L SOHC bought new in late 01 (as in the warranty has long gone bye-bye). Not long after I bought it, I had an occasional problem where the door ajar light (and the ding) would go off when applying the brakes at high speed. It was never frequent enough that I could take it in, and it went away for a long while. Over time, it began to become more frequent, but usually it was the rear window-hatch being open.

I took it in for the recall on the hinges in the hopes that would address the problem, but it has only gotten worse. As of early last year it was coming in trends where every touch of the brake would case the door ajar indicator and chime to go off and frequently the dome light. Then it would go quite for a month (on 3 occasions, it stopped within 1-4 days of a scheduled visit to my local stealership).

The problem has also been spreading. The last couple of 'incidents' have been lasting longer and began affecting my windows, moonroof, right rear turn signal, right brake light, and manual rear window-hatch control (it still works off the fob when I push it 4 or 5 times).

To expand on the nature of the problems:

During the last incident, the right rear turn signal and brake light went dim then stopped working altogether with the signal blinking at double speed (Yes the bulb appears to be good, filaments intact). After that incident ended, both functioned normally for a while, then went out for good after a very brief recurrence 2-3 months ago.

During the last incident, the windows at first registered as door ajar when used, and thus broke the circuit when the keys were out of the ignition and later stopped working completely. Even though the window controls wouldn't work, the door ajar chime and light still went off when they were pressed. The driver's window was half way down when it all stopped, but the motors could be heard when the buttons were pressed and it was possible to raise the windows by hand if the button was held (I know it was not the smartest move on my part). The moonroof also stopped working, but the motor could be heard. Everything worked fine after the incident ended.

The rear window-hatch button on the back of the car stopped working and I had to press the key fob button several times for it to open that way.

Oh, and the using the brake, the left turn signal, or both caused an irregular repeating door ajar chime and blinking indicator.

I was driving back from Santa Barbara last night and it started up a little again. Had to drive it into work today and it went nuts on me while getting lunch. The passenger window is now stuck all the way down, none of the windows will work, and pushing the button only causes the door ajar light and chime to go off without any motor noise. Right turn signal and brake light are still out, rear window-hatch won't open without using the fob, and using the brake and left signal all trip the door ajar.

I've taken it to the stealership and they gave me some story about a dash display computer, but I get the distinct sense they don't have a clue and just picked the most expensive service they could charge me for. Besides, they were supposed to 'call me when the part came in since it had to be special ordered for the factory so it matched my current odometer setting...' then they suggested I drive it home and wait for their call (which never came).

So...any takers? Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me.

 

[shorrockt]

Sounds like something in the Centeral Security Module

Power windows, locks, turn signals, chime, door ajar, and rear window controls are all routed through this module. the Brake line also is routed into this module so that covers just about everything.

Could be a loose plug, a short in the connector harness or a bad computer module.

if there is a problem, a dealer might be able to get codes from the module (I don't think it will set any P codes (check engine lights) but will set other codes the dealer can read.)

Hope this helps,

Tom

 

[ExplorerDMB]

I think you have a short somewhere

-Drew

 

[DriverBL]

I think you have a short somewhere

-Drew

Any idea where to start looking or is this something beyond my ability to fix?

Also an update:
The door ajar light is now always on, but the chime only goes off when I brake, use the left turn signal, try to open a window, etc. Also both dome lights are constantly on (but I think they might be dimmer than normal) except when I brake then the front dome light goes out until I release the brake.

Also, if it is a short, is this something I could take to a trusted independent or is this something that I have to take to the stealership?

Thanks!

 

[FordLover]

I doubt it's a short, you'd be blowing fuses. You've got either a bad ground ( not terribly likely, unless someone has been modifying the wiring on your truck-have you??) or the module mentioned earlier is defective. I'd lean towards a bad module.

 

[DriverBL]

I doubt it's a short, you'd be blowing fuses. You've got either a bad ground ( not terribly likely, unless someone has been modifying the wiring on your truck-have you??) or the module mentioned earlier is defective. I'd lean towards a bad module.

No, I haven't made any modifcations to the wiring. Basically, the way I'm understanding it... I don't really have a choice except to take it to a dealer, right?

 

[shorrockt]

or find a local shop that has one of the better scan tools that can read codes beyond the generic obd codes.

if you wanted to check the cluster like the dealer said was bad, lookup the discussion on using the check mode for insturment clusters (hold down the trip/reset while going into run) and post any DTC's the dash displays. I'll look them up for you in the shop manual. that might help improve your footing with the dealership.

 

[fluXplorer]

I feel your pain, DriverBL

I've recently experienced a similar problem on my '02 xlt, and I have no clue how to proceed... I bet it has something to do with that Central security thingamabob.

At first, my left rear turn signal went out, which caused the front left signal to blink twice as fast. No problem, though- I replaced the defective bulb and the blinking went back to normal.

Then, as I was running errands, I noticed that every time I stepped on the brake, the power locks would re-lock (the power windows, moonroof still work as normal). I began to beleive that it was a faulty brake switch, until I noticed a different, but related problem at night...

I always leave the headlights on the Auto Lamp setting, so I dont have to bother with the headlights at night. I noticed that every once in a while, the instrument cluster lights would go out and then come back on. To make the story short, pressing the brake at random will not cause the power locks to re-lock. It is not until the instrument cluster lights go out and come back, that pressing the brake pedal will trigger the power locks! I further noticed that when the instrument panel lights go out, so do the rear parking lights. The headlights are not affected.

I checked every single fuse, but failed to find any problems. I have not checked the relays, but upon reading some of these comments, it's very likely that some electronic module is to blame.

Please let us know if you find a solution to your problem. Unfortunately my work hours prevent me from going to the dealer, so I may have to set up a maintenance check with the local mechanic.

 

[DriverBL]

Thanks, Shorrockt, I'll probably do that tonight.

fluXplorer reminded me of something else that I forgot to mention earlier (yeah, that's right, there is more ). I also usually keep my lights on Auto Lamp, but occasionally when I park and turn off the ignition, the headlights will stay on even after I lock the doors. After about 30 seconds, the alarm will go off. If I flip the lights to manual off then back to auto, they stay out and the alarm remains silent.

 

[fluXplorer]

Here wo go shorrockt, the problem seems to be getting worse and worse....

I did the "hold down the trip/reset while going into run" test and obtained the following:

dt 14A1
dtc 5284

My sister also has an '02 explorer. performing the same test, I got:

dt 12d1
dtc 9202
dtc 5284

She's away on vacation, so I dont know if she noticed any problems, but she did mention once that her emergency lights didnt blink on one side of the car.

I had stopped by at the local mechanic today, but he doesnt want to touch my car. He suggested taking it to the dealer because of how the systems are connected.

 

[shorrockt]

dt 14a1 is the manfacture date of the unit

5284 = Oil pressure switch out of range


------------------

dt 12D1 is the man date of the unit
9202 = Fuel sender open circut
5284 = oil press sw

so it seems there is nothing wrong with the cluster

for 9202 start by testing for presistent DTC B1202 or B1204 if they are set then that indicates a problem with the fuel pump sender.

for 5284 start by testing for DTC C1284. if set then you have an oil pressure switch failure. this can also be caused by running in test mode with the engine off since there is no oil pressure, so check for the C1284 code.

If you have an autozone near you, they can read codes out of the vechile for free. just ask them to check for you. These codes don't appear to be involved with your probelm.

I looked through the Pinpoint test for the central security module, and it should throw many codes too.

I'm out of town next week, so if you find any more codes, post em and I'll let you know what the shop book says when I get back on friday.

Here is the central security module directions:

1 Disconnect the battery ground cable. Refer to «Section 414-01».

2 Disconnect all central security module connectors.

3 Check for:

l corrosion

l pushed-out pins

4 Connect all central security module connectors and make sure they seat correctly.

5 Reconnect the battery ground cable. Refer to «Section 414-01».

6 Operate the system and verify the concern is still present.

l Is the concern still present?

è Yes

INSTALL a new central security module. REFER to «Section 419-10». CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.

è No

The system is operating correctly at this time. Concern may have been caused by a loose or corroded connector. CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.


the module is located behind the RH rear quarter panel, but you won't like it:
Rear Quarter Trim Panel


Removal and Installation

All vehicles
1. Remove the C-pillar trim panel. For additional information, refer to «C-Pillar Trim Panel» in this section.

µ 2. Partially remove the rear door opening weatherstrip.

µ 3. Remove the trim panel clip.

Vehicles without third row seats
4. Remove the second row seats. For additional information, refer to «Section 501-10».

µ 5. Remove the luggage assembly cover.

µ 6. Remove the stowage compartment doors.

µ 7. Note:
Right side shown, left side similar.

Remove the stowage compartment assembly.

l Remove the four screws.

l Remove the stowage compartment.

Vehicles with third row seat
8. Remove the third row seat. For additional information, refer to «Section 501-10».

All vehicles
µ 9. Remove the liftgate opening weatherstrip.

10. Remove the D-pillar trim panel. For additional information, refer to «D-Pillar Trim Panel» in this section.

µ 11. Disconnect the power door lock electrical connector.

µ 12. Remove the liftgate door scuff plate.

µ 13. Remove the rear quarter trim panel.

14. To install, reverse the removal procedure.

Tom

 

[BrooklynBay]

I've read a few threads about defective GEM modules that were causing a lot of strange electrical problems. Check into this as well as that Central Security Module.

 

[A1C_Snowman]

GEM modules have always been problems in 2nd and 3rd gen Exp/Ranger's I replaced a GEM module in a Ranger or explorer at least once a month back when I worked at a dealer.

 

[BrooklynBay]

What kind of problems did those vehicles have that were related to the GEM? Were any of them similar to the ones that he is having?

 

[A1C_Snowman]

Just like the ones you talking about. Door chime, dome light, door ajar. Honestly it would be the first place I'd look.

 

[BrooklynBay]

That is what first came to my mind when I saw the post. I think certain newer models could be reprogrammed. The older ones were not able to be reprogrammed. OTC makes scanners that read codes from them, and could reprogram them.

 

[fluXplorer]

Great News!!

This past weekend I had a fun time taking out the third row seat and right rear trim panel to access the Central Security Module. Following shorrockt's instructions made it a snap

Anyway, I left the trim panel off and took it to the executor.... errr..... dealer... Sure enough, the CSM was the culprit! It took them a day to get the replacement, but at least they gave me a loaner to drive around for the two days.

They also replaced the lift gate hinges due to the recall.

Total cost: $53

Thanks for the great advice, and DriverBL... let us know how YOU make out

 

[DriverBL]

Problem solved!

Sorry it has taken me so long to post again, things got rather hectic on my end. After trying some of the suggestions posted here (and a few of my own evil experiments) I ended up breaking down and taking it back to the dealer, but a different one than where I first took it too.

Even though I told the guy it was probably the GEM, he convinced me (largely due to his candid interest in the problem, the fact that he was trying a couple of things prior to giving me a quote and his straight-forward explanation of his thoughts) to let them run a full electrical diagnostic on it. I was also at 70,000 miles so I figured I would have them give it the 75k servce too, ran me up to around $430 ish in the end. Come to find out, the guy was dead on and it turned out to be a loose ground behind the trim panel on the passenger side that was causing the GEM to freak out.

The grand irony is that the first dealer I took it to, the one that wanted to charge me $500 for a new CSM, has a good reputation for honesty while the one that fixed it has a rep for being REALLY shady. LOL

Thanks to everyone for all your help!

 

[DriverBL]

just for fun

Just thought I would throw this out for fun...

On the way to the dealership this last time, I had a friend follow me and do all the signaling for me (can't do arm signals since the window won't roll down, besides this is Los Angeles, the only hand sign people see is the finger ). According to her, when I braked, my reverse lights came on, and when my turn signal was on while I was braking (like at a signal) the center brake light blinked!

Thanks again to everyone for their help. This is a really great forum!

 

[BrooklynBay]

It sounded like it was related to the GEM.