mounty motor swap update

[Limited02]

 

[shadowless127]

Dude, my name isn't Dude, and you are full of crap. You are stating comparisons between a stock 302 and a stock LS#. Only a moron would use stock inferior 302 guts to build anything but a stock engine.

So by definition the stock LS# is superior to a stock 302(nobody argues that, why did you state that). You go ahead and run your stock 302 against a stock LS#, that would be stupid.

I'm not harping on anything. Only a moron would expect to fairly compare a $3000-$6000 LS# to a $1500-$3500 302 built with various stock or junk parts.

You are going to spend tons of money on an LS#, and to me $3500 is a ton for a used engine. I'm going to race you fairly with a 302 based engine that I spend a similar amount of money. That's fair.

Any Ford performance engine I build will have equal or superior internal parts to your LS# engine. Strength is not an issue. The real issue is head design, camshaft design, intake and valvetrain, and reciprocating weights. Ford has long since the 60's made the best heads stock, with the aftermarket stuff, those are still better than any Chevy garbage. I'll take my high port heads or my Cleveland heads and laugh at your modern pushrod junk.

Chevy invested too much money into revamping pushrod engines. Ford did a horrible job of designing modular engines(they are too large(long stroke), with poor heads).They both screwed up, so here we are still enjoying the old Ford pushrod engines. They hold their own against any Chevy, which by definition is a POS to me.

You go ahead and keep bench racing stock engines, the stock LS1 F-Body's etc. The smart Ford guys will be buying the superior aftermarket heads, intake, and custom cams. You bring that stock LS1 F-Body to the track and see how far that 300hp gets you. LOL,

300whp will get me quite far bone stock.

You're way too married to the 302. Yes, it's a great engine. Yes, it's better then the old chevy small blocks. No, it is not and never will be better then an LSx.

The fact that you have to even mention building a 302 and using nothing but aftermarket parts does not make your arguement any better. You're basically saying that you can't keep up unless you go all aftermarket...

And guess what, when the LSx have been out for as long as the EFI 302, they too will be cheap just like the 302's.

 

[mwant0276]

i think the idea here is the guys who want to be resourceful ie. using what parts/engines they can get for a good price. also if you KNOW the engine you are transplanting. Im not much of brand specific dude when it comes to engines because once you pull an engine you typically have torn it down to where you can make a reliable, powerful engine regardless of brand. just sayin
i say do the engine trans swap and post plenty of pics for us! i admire the guys willing to try something new (its their $)

 

[rocket 5979]

It sounds like you have worked on quite a few mild 302 based engines with less money in them than a stock LS# engine. That is not a fair comparison. If an LS# engine costs $5000 or more new, or $3000ish used plus new parts, than it's only fair to spend $4000-$6000, or more to equal the costs of an LS# engine.

My 347 cost around $4500, complete, fully dressed. It is worth 400hp just like it is, and a very mild boost will make it strong enough for most comparisons. But that's still less money than an LS# engine, plus the stock block limits, so be fair and also include a Dart block. Right there you have a block that can handle any power, so stop mentioning weak blocks. Never use a stock 302 block for serious power.

To compare a strong 302 based engine to a strong LS# engine, spend the same $6000 or so on each. I'll take the Ford engine, it's smaller and lighter and will beat the Chevy. Don't use junk heads or OTS cams, or small intakes. Get the good stuff, the big stuff, the custom cam and Dart block, and then spank the Chevy.

I'll keep my Ford engine in my Ford body, and beat the Chevy engine in whatever you stick it in. Regards,

Don I have been in the Ford performance scene, both pushrod Windsor and OHC Modular for many years now. I have also been into the GM LSx engines for a while now too. With that said, it would be hard to say that I am brand loyal because I am not. But your post here that I am quoting seems to ooze of it.

First and foremost, there is no need to buy a brand new LSx engine because you can find plenty of them in used condition for only a few grand fully dressed and in amazing shape. ****, take a great condition LS2/L76 STOCK alum shortblock for around $1,200-$1,400, add a set of ported L92 (LS3 heads) for just over a grand, throw a FAST intake on it for around a grand, and a cam for around $600, and other BS parts like ARP fasteners & studs and whatnot for another $400 and you will be making WELL over 500+hp at the tires with a combo not even breaking a sweat and with the weight savings of an aluminum block to boot. All for less than $4,400. Hell if you wanted to save even more money then you could just get a used full longblock pullout LS1 for about 2 grand, throw a cam in it and be making over 400rwhp for less than $2,500.

Now lets talk about more serious power. Lets say you want to make 650-700rwhp. Well to do that in a Ford Windsor based 302 combo you will HAVE TO have an aftermarket R block (or other comparable block) with a fully built bottom end to handle that kind of power. PERIOD! Meanwhile Stock longblock LS2's, LS3's, and L76's are handling that sort of power all day long in BONE STOCK form with just a connecting rod bolt upgrade and head studs. So lets see here....Spend almost $5,000 on an engine that needed to be built to handle 650-700rwhp or spend about $3,000 for one that can handle it in stock form. And that is just starting out for those engines considering they hold that sort of power in unbuilt form. Put a little more money into them and they get nasty REAL quick.

Now once you plan on going past 1,000hp then the pricepoints to build both engines get a bit closer because now EVERYTHING has changed to the aftermarket with both Ford Windsor 302 based engine and the GM LSx engine except that the GM LSx still retains its stock engine block. Still, the 1,000+ hp comparison doesn't apply to 99.999% of people out there so can you really consider it a valid comparison here? Most would agree that it would not be.

Don you are a good guy, I have always liked you since I have been a member on here, and you sure as heck aren't a newby to performance vehicles. But in this particular subject you just don't have the knowledge-base to make any accurate comparisons here. You will notice that in my post I stated horsepower figures and dollar amounts to achieve those figures. I didn't see you specify anything like that in your post besides mentioning that you spent $4500 on your 347 and it should make around 400hp (and please tell me that 400hp figure you stated is at the tires and not a flywheel figure). This is probably because I am operating off of firsthand knowledge of the Ford 302 Windsor based combos and GM LSx combos I have built in the past, not just brand loyalty.

I pursue whatever approach nets me the most horsepower per dollar spent. If the Ford Windsor engine did it then I would be touting the Ford engine in this thread. But the simple fact is that when going after any horsepower between 400rwhp and 800rwhp the GM LSx is probably going to come out on top and most likely by a fair hp and price margin too. The GM LSx is not the best engine out there but in this particular comparison it does come out ahead.

Ford has long since the 60's made the best heads stock, with the aftermarket stuff, those are still better than any Chevy garbage. I'll take my high port heads or my Cleveland heads and laugh at your modern pushrod junk.

Some flow numbers at given valve lift heights and bore sizes would be good here. Please post.

 

[CDW6212R]

Well I am partial to Fords, but the only reason I hate all Chevy's is due to stupid Chevy owners. All those guys who ignorantly for decades put down all Fords, all Mopars, toss out the name/letter meanings, they instigate the hate. I never bought into any of it, and as I learned along the way, I found out how little they did know. So my prejudice is the fault of the other guys, not my built in dislike etc. I can work with anything, but certain life experiences create prejudices. Thus I hate Chevy's, but I'm fine with the other GM makes. As an American, believe me when I say I don't buy Asian vehicles, the trade imbalance is greatly from Asian vehicles. So I do my part in not supporting Toyota/Honda/Datsun etc.

I would never transplant one make of engine into another, that's just a personal preference. The engine is the heart of the vehicle, if I was a dictator I would make that illegal by law. Leave that alone, swap any other parts from other makes, that's just fine. But not the engine.

Robert, in my other posts I did mention the Dart block. That is the standard high performance block to get for a Ford smallblock, 302 or 351W. They run about $2k machined.

For an Explorer, a truck, it doesn't make sense to talk about race engines or high rpm engines, so I didn't. It only makes sense to do engines with reasonable street rpm's, so maybe 6000rpm tops. My 347 is in that range and I made a mistake picking the intake. You can build comparable 347's that make 400+hp to the wheels for similar money, say $4500 from scratch for the long block.

Of course to get more out of it, the block needs to go. Jay Allen built a 2HP/CI 347 stock block engine over a year ago. That wasn't a truck engine, but a 7000rpm street/drag piece. His health went away while it was being tested, so there's no sense talking about that engine now and how it's lasting. But the point is that was a typical 347 build with a radical(expensive) intake, and custom camshaft to work with the parts in the rpm range.

I don't know the LS# engines, that's true, and I'm not interested in finding out(blame the Chevy guys entirely). When I decide not to do business with something, it's forever. I haven't been to McDonalds by choice since the late 70's.

The bottom line is that there is power potential in Ford 302 based engines way beyond what common people think. The huge problem is that the majority of heads people use or talk about are not good, compared to the best. If people could wade through the BS sales pitches for the heads from Ford like the GT40, and heads from AFR/Brodix/Dart etc, there is more HP to find in other heads.

Put the best heads together with the biggest intake, and set up the valvetrain just right with a custom cam, and then go to the track. There are more and more of them being built, but they are still outnumbered big time by the poor head variety of Fords.

For a dedicated drag car, use what ever you want to. For a street SUV, keep the engine a match to the make. Just my worthless two cents though, people are more likely to do the opposite of what is suggested. Regards,

 

[CDW6212R]

...
Some flow numbers at given valve lift heights and bore sizes would be good here. Please post.

The old 351C-4V heads are unmatched by any stock smallblock head by any maker. Bill Glidden won countless races with stock block Clevelands and OEM Cleveland 4V heads. There were no competitors with smallblocks who could give him a fight in Pro Stock then. Glidden was the king of Pro Stock until after they went to the 500CI limit.

The 4V Clevelands were designed to compete against bigblock Nascar race cars in the late 60's. In testing they were just as fast as the top Nascar times of the day. Unfortunately right then Nascar decided to limit the engines to 357 CI. The bigblock cars were not high rpm engines, the Cleveland was designed to run those same reasonable rpm's, for 500 miles. The other smallblock engines had to turn more rpm to produce similar speeds. So the race teams went about raising the rpm range of the Cleveland too. That's when the oiling system became suspect, and the exhaust ports too. The Cleveland was just right for what they designed it for, but they never redesigned it to improve it for Nascar after that. 1972 was the official end of racing for Ford(support), and the Cleveland stayed the same. Today's aftermarket parts are even a little better, but the Nascar standard is still the heads patterned after Cleveland heads. They are all canted valve heads, and have been for decades now.

 

[rocket 5979]

Well I am partial to Fords, but the only reason I hate all Chevy's is due to stupid Chevy owners. All those guys who ignorantly for decades put down all Fords, all Mopars, toss out the name/letter meanings, they instigate the hate. I never bought into any of it, and as I learned along the way, I found out how little they did know. So my prejudice is the fault of the other guys, not my built in dislike etc.

Regardless, it is still a prejudice based upon preference which has zero bearing on the topic at hand. We aren't discussing who likes Ford or Chevy better because that is up to semantics. We were discussing the relative power making & power holding potential of the Ford Windsor 302 based engines and the GM LSx engines. One is a discussion based on opinion and the other based upon data. Two totally different topics.

The old 351C-4V heads are unmatched by any stock smallblock head by any maker. Bill Glidden won countless races with stock block Clevelands and OEM Cleveland 4V heads. There were no competitors with smallblocks who could give him a fight in Pro Stock then. Glidden was the king of Pro Stock until after they went to the 500CI limit.

The 4V Clevelands were designed to compete against bigblock Nascar race cars in the late 60's. In testing they were just as fast as the top Nascar times of the day. Unfortunately right then Nascar decided to limit the engines to 357 CI. The bigblock cars were not high rpm engines, the Cleveland was designed to run those same reasonable rpm's, for 500 miles. The other smallblock engines had to turn more rpm to produce similar speeds. So the race teams went about raising the rpm range of the Cleveland too. That's when the oiling system became suspect, and the exhaust ports too. The Cleveland was just right for what they designed it for, but they never redesigned it to improve it for Nascar after that. 1972 was the official end of racing for Ford(support), and the Cleveland stayed the same. Today's aftermarket parts are even a little better, but the Nascar standard is still the heads patterned after Cleveland heads. They are all canted valve heads, and have been for decades now.

All I see are qualitative statements here but nothing quantitative; let alone based upon data gathered within the last 2 decades. Since these heads you are talking about are so good then they are bound to have flow numbers at given valve lifts and bore sizes to back the claims up. So I ask again, where are the flow numbers? Until those are provided I take your "these are the best" statements for a grain of salt. Back up your claims with some factual data man! Also, if you think that the LSx engines need to rev to make hp or tq then it just shows that you know very very little about these engines. I understand you are proud of your 347 and you should be. They are badass engines. But some of your technical statements make me believe that you have your head in the clouds.

 

[2002GreyHD150]

ok... maybe as a die-hard Ford-blue guy who accepts change... I will throw in an alternate view...

When did ford give up on Pushrod development? hmmmm.... 1993... the Mustang Cobra. the 1994 & 1995 SN-95 cobra's had the same cam, heads, modified intake to fit the new hood profile. The SN95 Cobra R was a 351 with all SVO/SVT hardware, limited production... Ford, love ya guys, you signed out in 1993 on pushrod tech. Edit: the 1995 Cobra R was a F150 lightning 351 with Mass air for crying out loud.


1996 4.6 Crown vic SOHC, revised intake & exhuast... dog... trying to teach pushrod guys new tricks... 96-98 floundered as the LS engines emerged & started kicking ass & taking names.. LT's left.. LS slipped in & the rest is , unfortunately small black history.

FACT: in the world of STOCK small blocks (aka under 400cid) the LS-series own it these days... its the nature of the battle... 1983-1993 Ford 5.0 power mopped up. Ford left the pushrod... it wasn't until 2003 when the Cobra was S/C and kicking ass that Blue oval was on top... but by then... on top of a different performance grid...not bad, just different.

EVERY brand, Mazda, Toyota, Jag, Aston, Jeep, Street rod, Off Road buggie.... you cannot touch the LS for the $$ to hp investment. Sorry.

You have to understand: I own 11 vehicles. ONE is not a Ford (Subaru WRX)... only ONE is a SOHC, the Wife's Montyand (2) are 1.6L turbo engines developed with Ford/Mazda.... I love my blue ovals. I know my way around a 5.0 like my own... never mind...

From a packaging, $$ per hp value, interchangability, & box stock view... there is not a better pushrod option on the street right now... than the LS package.

RIP pushrod 5.0

Rob

 

[Limited02]

Are you saying the '93 Cobra was a modular? If so, it's a 5.0, not a modular motor.

The '94-95 Mustangs also had the 5.0(I'm sure the heads/cam were different than the '93 Cobra). The 4.6 modular motor showed up in the '96 Mustang.

The 4.6 modular motor did come out into the Crown Vics in 1993 I believe.

I also agree that bang for the buck, the LS series motors can't be beat. But I don't want one in my Explorer I'm curious to see how Ford's new 5.0 will stack up to the LS motor mod for mod. They new 5.0's are showing A LOT of potential with minimal work.

 

[rocket 5979]

Are you saying the '93 Cobra was a modular? If so, it's a 5.0, not a modular motor.

The '94-95 Mustangs also had the 5.0(I'm sure the heads/cam were different than the '93 Cobra). The 4.6 modular motor showed up in the '96 Mustang.

The 4.6 modular motor did come out into the Crown Vics in 1993 I believe.

I also agree that bang for the buck, the LS series motors can't be beat. But I don't want one in my Explorer I'm curious to see how Ford's new 5.0 will stack up to the LS motor mod for mod. They new 5.0's are showing A LOT of potential with minimal work.

The way I read HD's post I didn't interpret what he said as saying that the 5.0's in the 93 Cobra's were of the modular variety.

The Ford modular motor made its debut in the 1993 Lincoln Mark VIII's with the DOHC 4v 4.6 V8 with the Teksid aluminum engine block.

The new Ford 5.0 Coyote engine is a BAD MAMBAJAMBA!!! It has a f**kton of potential. I would say that if the 5.0 Coyote doesn't beat the GM Gen IV LSx engines that it will sure as hell give them a run for their money. Until the Coyote engine is out longer there won't be enough repeatable data to accurately compare the two. I honestly would not be surprised if the GM LSx engines got edged out a bit by the Ford Coyote 5.0 especially when you start adding more displacement to the Ford engine. As I hope everyone knows, the latest Ford 5.0 engine is nowhere even remotely close in design to the Windsor based 5.0 engines from the 80's and 90's.

 

[jasongt06]

actually the 4.6 made it's debut in the 1991 Lincoln Town Car. Now the 4.6 4 valve did debut in the 1993 Lincoln Mark VIII.

 

[2002GreyHD150]

1986 was Mod debut in the Crown vic on Taxi applications only to test viability... 1991 Continential was first FWD use of Mod engine in anything production. 1993 Mark VIII was first DOHC 4.6.

I would never blasphame the 1993-1995 Cobra with Mod-talk.. LOL...

1993 5.0L pushrod at its highest point, which was sooooo detuned its pitiful... becuase the general public couldn't handle it... I know... my 1978 Mustang II King Cobra has a complete, OE 1993 5.0L cobra transplant, engine, computer, the whole 9 minus the worthless 8.8 rear axle, making 362rwhp on the dyno, bone stock... just a lil EEC magik.

the 1995 Cobra R, as I said, is a 351w, direct borrow from the same year F150 Lightning, added SN95 EECV computer with MAF vs F150 Speed Density EECiv,and a larger TB, tuned exhaust & STILL was underrated by more than 25% at the wheels.

Boys & girls.. Don't wonder if I have my marbles... I know my 5.0/pushrod ford Small Block lore...

I love the modular engines, in all they represent in the future of performance... Coyote is all that needs said... a 5.0L pushrod, as Edsel Ford jr. had penned as the 260/289 would never do what the mod 5.0 coyote can do now... not feasable...THIS is my point... the LS-series DOES what the 5.0 mod/coyote does... WITH PUSHRODS!

call it the hot rodder in me... call me the old school stalwart.. whatever... nothing NOTHING replaces the sound of a pushrod V8 through the gears.

I have 2 sons, 5 & 7... they are starting to see dad's "affliction" as mom calls it... I want my boys to understand the hair on the back of the neck, the tingle in the seat of the pants, the wide eyed, ship eating grin on your face pull of big block, pushrod grunt & high revving pushrod performance.

I have a genunine 1970 Boss 302 long block stashed away. I recently snagged a low mile '71 Boss 351, complete from Air cleaner to oil drain plug. These will find homes in cars which will be driven.

But I am pragmatic. I know the future is here now. the LS is the last of the pushrods. There is not likely more that can be found. But its amazing what has been found. Qudos to GM for making the OHV v8 mainstream & taking it out with a bang.

Rob

 

[rocket 5979]

actually the 4.6 made it's debut in the 1991 Lincoln Town Car. Now the 4.6 4 valve did debut in the 1993 Lincoln Mark VIII.

Meh no one counts that POS car.

 

[rocket 5979]

call it the hot rodder in me... call me the old school stalwart.. whatever... nothing NOTHING replaces the sound of a pushrod V8 through the gears.

Maybe it is because I have always been partial to the Ford modulars but I like the sound of those more than the GM pushrods on average. And mind you that is coming from a guy that drives a built 402 cubic inch LS2, cammed, twin turbo GM car. I like the sound that my car has but I just think the modular motors sound tougher for some reason.