opinions wanted - sell my 1997 Explorer v8 AWD 115k to buy 2010 Explorer 4.6 135k

[1.8TTony]

All vehicles need repairs & maintenance.

So here's the thing: The 5.0L V8 engine will easily outlast the newer 4.6L engine. The newer engines (4.6L, 5.4L and v10's-same design) all have common cam phaser problems.

Additionally, the timing chain tensioners eventually fail to retain residual oil in them, which in turn results in that oil leaking out, the tensioner fails......which causes the engine valve train to rattle upon cold starts.

Cam phaser replacement cost is (approximately): $1,500.....there are two phasers on these engines.

Timing chain tensioner replacement cost is also (approximately) $1,500. There are two timing chain tensioners on these engines.

The newer Ex will ride more comfortably due to it's rear independent suspension design. Rear wheel bearing failure is fairly common. On these newer vehicles.....and when one of those rear wheel bearings fail, they have a tendency to ruin the bearing hub carrier. The carrier part is not typically a "replacement" part found at local auto parts retailers. As a result, a used (salvage yard part) will need to be sourced or one purchased from the dealership.

I've rebuilt numerous rear differentials (ring/pinion, gears, seals, bearings) on these newer vehicles with less than 150k miles at a cost of $2,500.

The multi disc audio system has a tendency to fail.

With that being said, I'd go with the 2010 Explorer. The refinements of the newer design outweigh any deficiencies the vehicle may have.

 

[ELeBlanc]

All vehicles need repairs & maintenance.

So here's the thing: The 5.0L V8 engine will easily outlast the newer 4.6L engine. The newer engines (4.6L, 5.4L and v10's-same design) all have common cam phaser problems.

Additionally, the timing chain tensioners eventually fail to retain residual oil in them, which in turn results in that oil leaking out, the tensioner fails......which causes the engine valve train to rattle upon cold starts.

Cam phaser replacement cost is (approximately): $1,500.....there are two phasers on these engines.

Timing chain tensioner replacement cost is also (approximately) $1,500. There are two timing chain tensioners on these engines.

The newer Ex will ride more comfortably due to it's rear independent suspension design. Rear wheel bearing failure is fairly common. On these newer vehicles.....and when one of those rear wheel bearings fail, they have a tendency to ruin the bearing hub carrier. The carrier part is not typically a "replacement" part found at local auto parts retailers. As a result, a used (salvage yard part) will need to be sourced or one purchased from the dealership.

I've rebuilt numerous rear differentials (ring/pinion, gears, seals, bearings) on these newer vehicles with less than 150k miles at a cost of $2,500.

The multi disc audio system has a tendency to fail.

With that being said, I'd go with the 2010 Explorer. The refinements of the newer design outweigh any deficiencies the vehicle may have.

For me reliabilty is my number one concern by far. Couldn't agree with your first sentence more. My 25 year old 1997 seems to require lots of care and cuz I don't do anything myself it costs lots of money. I had two gen 3 4.0 5r55s die on me. First was tranny then timing chain. Second was just timing chain. Gas mileage and Ride a distant second. Were your estimates for replacing for both or just one so total is times two?

I just called my mechanic at home and he said all he did since he started working on car 1.5 yrs ago was fuel pump. Other just normal stuff - oil change, brakes, etc. Car still travels from NYC to FL and back occassionally.

.

 

[Bazz270]

The 3V have a cam phaser. It is a common problem for them to fail. There is a pin in them, the phaser gets excessive play and in extreme cases there will be engine damage. You buy the 2010 if you like it. At some point you would be at the same crossroads with it as your current explorer.

...common problem if chinese economy aftermarket or whatever Dorman trash timing kit or extra stupid mechanics job used.
Propertly installed Ford OEM cam phaser will last as long as the rest of the timing parts works.

 

[Astrobuf]

Have had this 97 v8 AWD with 115k for 3 years (and had it's twin for 3 years before that until I crashed it into a pole). Key Point - I don't do any work on cars - only my mechanic of last 30 years. Previously owned POS 2002 4.0 that suffered bot failed tranny (I replaced) then failed timing chain. Backed up from Gen 3 to Gen 2 V8s..

I live in Brooklyn and do weekly 240 mile night time trips between Brooklyn and State College PA almost all on I80. Being offered a 2010 4.6 4WD with 135k for $3500. My mechanics shop has been servicing this vehicle last year and a half. Just replaced fuel pump. Carfax shows only a FL registration and my mechanic tells me it goes back and forth to FL frequently. Virtually no service history in Carfax. I haven't seen the 2010 yet.

I've put alot of money into my 97. Being 25 years old seems like a kind of continuous stream. This week the support for the glass hatch stopped working. Mechanic said $100 to reolace both. Two weeks ago when traveling from NY to PA pulled into a gas station, filled itr up and turned the key and nothing at all. No clicking, no panel lights. I turned on headlights and walked to front and also no lights. Got back in car to call my mechanic and the headlights were on! Car started! I drove the rest of the way straight through. Conclusion is maybe I didn't have it appropriate in PARK. I've had and still have trouble witrh this. Sometimes it looks like it's in D but it's not...

I've put thousands into the 97 over last two and a half years. None on Engine, Trans, Drive train. Lot's underneath the car including suspension.

Little worried that the 2010 has a 6R80 tranny which is sealed.. I'd like to keep this for 3-4 years... 2010 is 13 years younger... Opinions please...

If it were me, I'd jump at a 2010 V8 with highway miles, esp at that price.

In fact I did almost the same thing 4 years ago, selling my 2004 v8 Eddie Bauer at 115k miles and buying a 57K mile 2010 v8 Ltd.

Be forewarned though that the 2010 4.6l will likely need a $3000 timing job. The 3v 4.6l & 5.4l engines are notorious for cam chain tensioner and phaser wear problems. I just did mine at 115k as my tensioners were leaking down.

At $3500, if the Exp is in good shape body wise, these days, that price is a steal. It should be selling for ~$8-10k, maybe more if it's healthy and clean.

 

[ELeBlanc]

If it were me, I'd jump at a 2010 V8 with highway miles, esp at that price.

In fact I did almost the same thing 4 years ago, selling my 2004 v8 Eddie Bauer at 115k miles and buying a 57K mile 2010 v8 Ltd.

Be forewarned though that the 2010 4.6l will likely need a $3000 timing job. The 3v 4.6l & 5.4l engines are notorious for cam chain tensioner and phaser wear problems. I just did mine at 115k as my tensioners were leaking down.

At $3500, if the Exp is in good shape body wise, these days, that price is a steal. It should be selling for ~$8-10k, maybe more if it's healthy and clean.

How did you know that the job needed to be done? Remember non-mechanic here. This is also already at 138k

 

[Josh P]

How did you know that the job needed to be done? Remember non-mechanic here. This is also already at 138k

Nobody is trying to create undue fear about the timing components. They could last the life of the car or go out the day you buy it. The mechanic that has been servicing the car would know if it needs attention soon, something to ask him about.

 

[94Eddie]

If it were me, I'd jump at a 2010 V8 with highway miles, esp at that price.

In fact I did almost the same thing 4 years ago, selling my 2004 v8 Eddie Bauer at 115k miles and buying a 57K mile 2010 v8 Ltd.

Be forewarned though that the 2010 4.6l will likely need a $3000 timing job. The 3v 4.6l & 5.4l engines are notorious for cam chain tensioner and phaser wear problems. I just did mine at 115k as my tensioners were leaking down.

At $3500, if the Exp is in good shape body wise, these days, that price is a steal. It should be selling for ~$8-10k, maybe more if it's healthy and clean.

The 4.6L 3V engines do not have the same issues as the 5.4L 3V engines. Here in this forum, where the frequency of problems is greatly amplified, it is very, very rare to hear of any timing related issues with the 4.6L 3V engines. The 4.6L 3V engine along with the very reliable 6R60/80 transmissions make this engine/transmission combination one of the most reliable Ford has ever offered.

 

[94Eddie]

All vehicles need repairs & maintenance.

So here's the thing: The 5.0L V8 engine will easily outlast the newer 4.6L engine. The newer engines (4.6L, 5.4L and v10's-same design) all have common cam phaser problems.

Additionally, the timing chain tensioners eventually fail to retain residual oil in them, which in turn results in that oil leaking out, the tensioner fails......which causes the engine valve train to rattle upon cold starts.

Cam phaser replacement cost is (approximately): $1,500.....there are two phasers on these engines.

Timing chain tensioner replacement cost is also (approximately) $1,500. There are two timing chain tensioners on these engines.

The newer Ex will ride more comfortably due to it's rear independent suspension design. Rear wheel bearing failure is fairly common. On these newer vehicles.....and when one of those rear wheel bearings fail, they have a tendency to ruin the bearing hub carrier. The carrier part is not typically a "replacement" part found at local auto parts retailers. As a result, a used (salvage yard part) will need to be sourced or one purchased from the dealership.

I've rebuilt numerous rear differentials (ring/pinion, gears, seals, bearings) on these newer vehicles with less than 150k miles at a cost of $2,500.

The multi disc audio system has a tendency to fail.

With that being said, I'd go with the 2010 Explorer. The refinements of the newer design outweigh any deficiencies the vehicle may have.

IMO, the chain, guide and phaser problems are not all that common in reality. The 4.6L in the 2V and 3V form are very reliable engines. The 2V engines routinely go 300k miles, or more, with only general maintenance in taxis fleets. Its reliability are a main reason many, many taxi companies and law enforcement departments use/used the Crown Vics. The 3V engines easily run for 250k miles or more with good maintenance. The 5.4L 3V is the problem child of this family of engines and its problems do not exist with the 4.6L 3V engine. Add in that the 6R80 transmission is one of the most reliable Ford has produced and the 4th gen V8 Explorers and Mountaineers are very reliable overall from a drive train aspect. The phaser replacement is a valve cover off procedure and why replacing both would cost $1,500 seems extreme. Two sprockets run around $200-$300. The procedure shown in the video below looks to be quite quick and easy. I chalk up most major drive train issues with the V8 4th gens being due to a lack of proper maintenance. IMO, Ford's recommended transmission service interval of 150k miles has killed more transmissions than any other cause. Especially with the 5R55 transmissions.

It isn't uncommon for 2-3 wheel bearings getting replaced by the time 200k miles is reached and in my area this costs about $400-$500 each to replace. There can be electrical gremlins to deal with regarding the 3rd and 4th gens but the 2009-2010 models seem to have fewer of these. I don't see many differential issues popping up in this forum. Overall, the 4th gen V8 Explorer/Mountaineer models are one of the most reliable ford has offered. There are many people here with well over 200k on them still using the original major drive train components.

 

[john cris]

Have had this 97 v8 AWD with 115k for 3 years (and had it's twin for 3 years before that until I crashed it into a pole). Key Point - I don't do any work on cars - only my mechanic of last 30 years. Previously owned POS 2002 4.0 that suffered bot failed tranny (I replaced) then failed timing chain. Backed up from Gen 3 to Gen 2 V8s..

I live in Brooklyn and do weekly 240 mile night time trips between Brooklyn and State College PA almost all on I80. Being offered a 2010 4.6 4WD with 135k for $3500. My mechanics shop has been servicing this vehicle last year and a half. Just replaced fuel pump. Carfax shows only a FL registration and my mechanic tells me it goes back and forth to FL frequently. Virtually no service history in Carfax. I haven't seen the 2010 yet.

I've put alot of money into my 97. Being 25 years old seems like a kind of continuous stream. This week the support for the glass hatch stopped working. Mechanic said $100 to reolace both. Two weeks ago when traveling from NY to PA pulled into a gas station, filled itr up and turned the key and nothing at all. No clicking, no panel lights. I turned on headlights and walked to front and also no lights. Got back in car to call my mechanic and the headlights were on! Car started! I drove the rest of the way straight through. Conclusion is maybe I didn't have it appropriate in PARK. I've had and still have trouble witrh this. Sometimes it looks like it's in D but it's not...

I've put thousands into the 97 over last two and a half years. None on Engine, Trans, Drive train. Lot's underneath the car including suspension.

Little worried that the 2010 has a 6R80 tranny which is sealed.. I'd like to keep this for 3-4 years... 2010 is 13 years younger... Opinions please...

I have a 2003 explorer xlt 4.0 which has a sealed tranny. What a crappy idea that was ford. Just my opinion but I’d stay away from anything designed like this

 

[Bazz270]

I have a 2003 explorer xlt 4.0 which has a sealed tranny. What a crappy idea that was ford. Just my opinion but I’d stay away from anything designed like this

Ford's 6R60 or 6R80 V8 transmissions are a licensed copy of ZF 6HP26 ,one of the world's most reliable transmissions of the last 20 years.

V8 transmissions has nothing to do with the previous explorer generations ones, especially the V6 unreliable french light car 5R55 transmissions.

 

[Bazz270]

IMO, the chain, guide and phaser problems are not all that common in reality. The 4.6L in the 2V and 3V form are very reliable engines. The 2V engines routinely go 300k miles, or more, with only general maintenance in taxis fleets. Its reliability are a main reason many, many taxi companies and law enforcement departments use/used the Crown Vics. The 3V engines easily run for 250k miles or more with good maintenance. The 5.4L 3V is the problem child of this family of engines and its problems do not exist with the 4.6L 3V engine. Add in that the 6R80 transmission is one of the most reliable Ford has produced and the 4th gen V8 Explorers and Mountaineers are very reliable overall from a drive train aspect. The phaser replacement is a valve cover off procedure and why replacing both would cost $1,500 seems extreme. Two sprockets run around $200-$300. The procedure shown in the video below looks to be quite quick and easy. I chalk up most major drive train issues with the V8 4th gens being due to a lack of proper maintenance. IMO, Ford's recommended transmission service interval of 150k miles has killed more transmissions than any other cause. Especially with the 5R55 transmissions.

It isn't uncommon for 2-3 wheel bearings getting replaced by the time 200k miles is reached and in my area this costs about $400-$500 each to replace. There can be electrical gremlins to deal with regarding the 3rd and 4th gens but the 2009-2010 models seem to have fewer of these. I don't see many differential issues popping up in this forum. Overall, the 4th gen V8 Explorer/Mountaineer models are one of the most reliable ford has offered. There are many people here with well over 200k on them still using the original major drive train components.

Ive replaced the phasers by myself.it took about 2 hours each side plus the new OEM phaser plus the wedge tool.

Cant see how this job could cost 1500 bucks.

The rear hubs plus carriers assembly costs 300 bucks for Moog aftermarket and the front bearings costs about 100 bucks each for Timken plus 2 hours/each job for the front and for the rears hubs/bearings.

 

[1.8TTony]

IMO, the chain, guide and phaser problems are not all that common in reality. The 4.6L in the 2V and 3V form are very reliable engines. The 2V engines routinely go 300k miles, or more, with only general maintenance in taxis fleets. Its reliability are a main reason many, many taxi companies and law enforcement departments use/used the Crown Vics. The 3V engines easily run for 250k miles or more with good maintenance. The 5.4L 3V is the problem child of this family of engines and its problems do not exist with the 4.6L 3V engine. Add in that the 6R80 transmission is one of the most reliable Ford has produced and the 4th gen V8 Explorers and Mountaineers are very reliable overall from a drive train aspect. The phaser replacement is a valve cover off procedure and why replacing both would cost $1,500 seems extreme. Two sprockets run around $200-$300. The procedure shown in the video below looks to be quite quick and easy. I chalk up most major drive train issues with the V8 4th gens being due to a lack of proper maintenance. IMO, Ford's recommended transmission service interval of 150k miles has killed more transmissions than any other cause. Especially with the 5R55 transmissions.

It isn't uncommon for 2-3 wheel bearings getting replaced by the time 200k miles is reached and in my area this costs about $400-$500 each to replace. There can be electrical gremlins to deal with regarding the 3rd and 4th gens but the 2009-2010 models seem to have fewer of these. I don't see many differential issues popping up in this forum. Overall, the 4th gen V8 Explorer/Mountaineer models are one of the most reliable ford has offered. There are many people here with well over 200k on them still using the original major drive train components.

Ford's 6R60 or 6R80 V8 transmissions are a licensed copy of ZF 6HP26 ,one of the world's most reliable transmissions of the last 20 years.

V8 transmissions has nothing to do with the previous explorer generations ones, especially the V6 unreliable french light car 5R55 transmissions.

6R60 and 6R80 Ford transmissions......you are correct. They are COPIES of the most reliable ZF transmissions ever designed. However, they are not a reliable replacement to said components. They utilize the same design, yet incorporate inferior metals, fluids and clutch pack materials.......I guess this is the difference between a German engineered ZF transmission built in Germany and an outsourced American engineered copy of a ZF style transmission manufactured in a third world nation. Mexico.

Let's not forget GM also jumped on the Gean ZF bandwagon and started using those transmissions. Those Euro transmissions were so good, GM even went so far as to invest money and become part owners of Saab.......that fiasco turned sour and GM quickly abandoned the whole Euro ZF thing. Ford stuck with it for a while.....then came the bankruptcy thing.

 

[1.8TTony]

On the other hand.......a ZF transmission being the most reliable transmission designed within the past 20 years ain't saying much.........there's 50 year old th400 transmissions still operating properly. My transmission in my 40 year old Toyota is doing just fine. The transmission in my 30 year old Mustang has never been replaced........however, what's a 2002 Ford transmission doing? How many 2000 era Mustang, Crown Vic, Explorer, Grand Marquis transmissions are still spinning perfectly?

 

[94Eddie]

6R60 and 6R80 Ford transmissions......you are correct. They are COPIES of the most reliable ZF transmissions ever designed. However, they are not a reliable replacement to said components. They utilize the same design, yet incorporate inferior metals, fluids and clutch pack materials.......I guess this is the difference between a German engineered ZF transmission built in Germany and an outsourced American engineered copy of a ZF style transmission manufactured in a third world nation. Mexico.

Let's not forget GM also jumped on the Gean ZF bandwagon and started using those transmissions. Those Euro transmissions were so good, GM even went so far as to invest money and become part owners of Saab.......that fiasco turned sour and GM quickly abandoned the whole Euro ZF thing. Ford stuck with it for a while.....then came the bankruptcy thing.

The 6R60/80 transmissions and its variants have proven very reliable in many Ford applications from Mustangs to Super Duty trucks. I don't see where there is much deviation from the ZF transmissions in regard to reliability. It is very common for 6R versions to run well over the 200k mile mark with good maintenance. Many here have 250k+ miles on original 6R60/80 transmissions. It is rare to see a post here about these transmissions and many times people who do post solve their problems with fluid/filter changes and/or software upgrades. Try to find posts in this forum where people have had to replace a 6R transmission. Then do the same for the 5R55 transmission.

 

[1.8TTony]

Ive replaced the phasers by myself.it took about 2 hours each side plus the new OEM phaser plus the wedge tool.

Cant see how this job could cost 1500 bucks.

The rear hubs plus carriers assembly costs 300 bucks for Moog aftermarket and the front bearings costs about 100 bucks each for Timken plus 2 hours/each job for the front and for the rears hubs/bearings.

Ive replaced the phasers by myself.it took about 2 hours each side plus the new OEM phaser plus the wedge tool.

Cant see how this job could cost 1500 bucks.

The rear hubs plus carriers assembly costs 300 bucks for Moog aftermarket and the front bearings costs about 100 bucks each for Timken plus 2 hours/each job for the front and for the rears hubs/bearings.

Kinda weird how you can replace a cam phaser in two hours when both Mitchel Book and the Ford Factory Service Manual both dictate that the process takes atleast 4 hours for one phaser and should be billed as a 5 man hour job......you must be cutting corners. As for the $1,500 price tag......that's $800 for four hours shop labor and $700 for the QUALITY parts......maybe you like buying cheap $300 Chinesium parts and cutting corners. Still not possible to do this job in just 2 hours as you stated.

You mention Moog parts......Moog used to be good and alot of older guys swear by those Moog parts. Fact is Moog is not quality USA made parts anymore. Moog has also been outsourced to a Spaniard company to replicate components with inferior materials with a cheaper manufacturing cost.

I do these repairs every day.......like EVERY DAY....... I know exactly what tools are needed before I even open the hood on a vehicle so to say this repair can be done in 2 hours is a foolish statement. Bordering on ignorant self-boasting......... It's almost like saying I know better than the person who built this engine in the first place I could do better than them. Just stop it. You're not impressing anybody you're actually misleading somebody into believing this is a much more simpler repair than what it actually is.

 

[94Eddie]

On the other hand.......a ZF transmission being the most reliable transmission designed within the past 20 years ain't saying much.........there's 50 year old th400 transmissions still operating properly. My transmission in my 40 year old Toyota is doing just fine. The transmission in my 30 year old Mustang has never been replaced........however, what's a 2002 Ford transmission doing? How many 2000 era Mustang, Crown Vic, Explorer, Grand Marquis transmissions are still spinning perfectly?

The less complicated the transmission the more likely it will last a long time. As transmissions become more complicated the more that can go wrong with them. The ZF and 6R copies are quite reliable for a modern day 6-speed transmission. Ford has put them in their F150 and super Duty pickups that see severe use and they last 200k-300k miles routinely with good maintenance (and not Ford's recommendation of 150k service intervals). What you are claiming just doesn't hold up in what is seen in the real world use cases for these transmissions.

 

[Bazz270]

Yea
Ford stealership prices and job durations..

Whatever man...

 

[94Eddie]

Kinda weird how you can replace a cam phaser in two hours when both Mitchel Book and the Ford Factory Service Manual both dictate that the process takes atleast 4 hours for one phaser and should be billed as a 5 man hour job......you must be cutting corners. As for the $1,500 price tag......that's $800 for four hours shop labor and $700 for the QUALITY parts......maybe you like buying cheap $300 Chinesium parts and cutting corners. Still not possible to do this job in just 2 hours as you stated.

Did you watch the video I linked to in a previous post. The person that is in that video is one of the most respected Ford mechanics on the internet. The procedure he uses can't take any more than 2-3 hours to complete for both sides and only requires removal of the valve covers. It is a $500-$600 job at most and less for many areas with lower hourly rates. Melling and Gates sprockets can be bought for $120 each and Ford sprockets are $175 each. There is no way changing these sprockets is a $1,500 job.

You mention Moog parts......Moog used to be good and alot of older guys swear by those Moog parts. Fact is Moog is not quality USA made parts anymore. Moog has also been outsourced to a Spaniard company to replicate components with inferior materials with a cheaper manufacturing cost.

I do these repairs every day.......like EVERY DAY....... I know exactly what tools are needed before I even open the hood on a vehicle so to say this repair can be done in 2 hours is a foolish statement. Bordering on ignorant self-boasting......... It's almost like saying I know better than the person who built this engine in the first place I could do better than them. Just stop it. You're not impressing anybody you're actually misleading somebody into believing this is a much more simpler repair than what it actually is.

If you are charging $1,500 a pop to replace cam phasers on 4.6L engines then you are ripping off your customers. Watch the video I linked above and use this method and save them around $1k for doing the same job.

 

[Bazz270]

3000 bucks per two phasers seems to be real random stealership policy.

Rounding corners...common man.i am using factory manual and oem tools too.you are not the only professional mechanic here.

The only difference... i am fixing my own vehicle here.i am not really interested on stealing myself lol

It is a simple old car not the space shuttle.why in the hell such a simple job would take 5 hours?

Like what are you doing there?taking the engine out of the car?

Anyways 1.8 whatever virtual person nickname.

Iam not really interested in this conversation or your opinion.do whatever you wish. Iam done here lol

 

[RoyKelly2]

This week the support for the glass hatch stopped working. Mechanic said $100 to reolace both. Two weeks ago when traveling from NY to PA pulled into a gas station, filled itr up and turned the key and nothing at all. No clicking, no panel lights. I turned on headlights and walked to front and also no lights. Got back in car to call my mechanic and the headlights were on! Car started! I drove the rest of the way straight through. Conclusion is maybe I didn't have it appropriate in PARK. I've had and still have trouble witrh this. Sometimes it looks like it's in D but it's not...

I've put thousands into the 97 over last two and a half years. None on Engine, Trans, Drive train. Lot's underneath the car including suspension.

Little worried that the 2010 has a 6R80 tranny which is sealed.. I'd like to keep this for 3-4 years... 2010 is 13 years younger... Opinions please...

First, the Glass Supports are at Orielly auto for $32.99 each, $65.98 plus tax total. The pop off and on. Maybe a screwdriver or pry-bar. Lifetime warranty. that $34.02 you save buys lunch for about a week around here.

Second, The shifter not going in Park, just might be a loose bolt like I fixed on my 97 AWD and the wife's 2001 Sport... See this thread Loose gear shifter... and what is this bolt?