Poor Brakes

[429CJ-3X2]

Since I bought my 2001 ST a year and a half ago, the brakes have left a lot to be desired. They stop the truck, but there's way too much pedal travel. Feels like it's low on fluid, but the reservoir is full. I put new pads on it in summer 2014. The rotors looked fine, so I didn't replace or resurface them. Actually, the pads weren't that worn either. I started to put new rear shoes on it later that summer, but took it to Midas for them to do when I pulled one drum and found everything completely soaked in oil from a leaking axle seal. They completely rebuilt the rear brakes and replaced the axle seals. A couple of months ago I bled the rear brakes. The bleeders are rusted tight on the front and I haven't got them changed yet. None of this changed the stopping ability or pedal feel/travel at all.

I'm wondering if the rotors have been turned too much at some point and I'm thinking to replace the pads and rotors. As I recall the calipers and new pads slid over the old rotors with more clearance than I expected. I will change the front bleeder screws and bleed the front brakes first. Is there something else I should be looking at?

 

[koda2000]

Since I bought my 2001 ST a year and a half ago, the brakes have left a lot to be desired. They stop the truck, but there's way too much pedal travel. Feels like it's low on fluid, but the reservoir is full. I put new pads on it in summer 2014. The rotors looked fine, so I didn't replace or resurface them. Actually, the pads weren't that worn either. I started to put new rear shoes on it later that summer, but took it to Midas for them to do when I pulled one drum and found everything completely soaked in oil from a leaking axle seal. They completely rebuilt the rear brakes and replaced the axle seals. A couple of months ago I bled the rear brakes. The bleeders are rusted tight on the front and I haven't got them changed yet. None of this changed the stopping ability or pedal feel/travel at all.

I'm wondering if the rotors have been turned too much at some point and I'm thinking to replace the pads and rotors. As I recall the calipers and new pads slid over the old rotors with more clearance than I expected. I will change the front bleeder screws and bleed the front brakes first. Is there something else I should be looking at?

Thin rotors wouldn't make any difference to pedal travel as disk brakes are self adjusting. Either you have air in the system that needs to be bled out, or the rear brake shoes are way out of adjustment, or you have an internal seal leak in the master cylinder.

When you bleed brakes you must start with the brake furthest way from the master cylinder (right rear) then the left rear, right front and lastly left front. Be very careful not to let the master cyl run dry or you'll get air in the ABS system, which is difficult to bleed.

 

[429CJ-3X2]

Thin rotors wouldn't make any difference to pedal travel as disk brakes are self adjusting. Either you have air in the system that needs to be bled out, or the rear brake shoes are way out of adjustment, or you have an internal seal leak in the master cylinder.

When you bleed brakes you must start with the brake furthest way from the master cylinder (right rear) then the left rear, right front and lastly left front. Be very careful not to let the master cyl run dry or you'll get air in the ABS system, which is difficult to bleed.

After I posted the thread I realized thin rotors shouldn't be the problem, especially with decent pads. Even if the rears are out of adjustment, and I don't think they are, the fronts should still grab. They just won't be as effective without the rears helping.

The Haynes manual suggests leaking seals in the master cylinder as a possibility. Maybe I should swap out the master cylinder instead of pads and rotors if bleeding doesn't help. That seems like more likely than thin rotors anyway. And when I said I'm going to bleed the fronts, I know I need to start with the rears again in the pattern you posted. That's the process I was in when I found the front bleeders were rusted.

 

[koda2000]

The front and rear brake circuits are independent of one another. With brake shoes (like in the rear) if the shoes are not adjusted properly there is excessive movement of the shoes before they contact the drum. This can cause a low pedal. There are "self adjusters" on brake shoe setups, but sometimes they don't work. A properly adjusted brake shoe should just drag on the drum slightly when the drums are cold. There's a small window on the rear backing plate that allows for manual adjustment of the star wheel. There's supposed to be a rubber plug covering this window.

I would check your rear brake shoe adjustment and bleeding the system before swapping the master cylinder.

 

[2TimingTom]

What kind of pads did you put on?

 

[429CJ-3X2]

Brake Best semi-metallic from O'Reilly's. Same pads I put on my '02 ST and my '94 Explorer before that. I've used those same pads for years and have no complaints other than a lot of dust. I replaced the rotors and pads on the '02 2 yrs ago. They grab immediately, so when I go from driving one truck to the other it's a huge change. Going from the '01 to the '02 I almost hit the steering wheel the 1st time or 2 I brake. Going the other way, I'm wondering if they're going to grab. Once they do, they stop the truck ok but the pedal has a little harder feel than it should. Pedal holds steady at a stop.

I drove it about 3 miles on the interstate at 55 mph into downtown today paying close attention to the brakes. They work better after the truck is, or has been, up to highway speed - less pedal travel, better feel, and it stops better.

I started this thread today because Advance has 25% off for Speed Perks members this weekend. They'll have another deal before I get this job done anyway. I seem to be babysitting my 9 mo old granddaughter at the prime truck repair times, and now it's getting cold.

 

[429CJ-3X2]

Well, based on a test drive around the neighborhood that included about 10 brake applications, and the drive to church and back this morning, it seems you nailed it koda. I adjusted the rear brakes and it stops and feels much more like it should. I don't think the brakes need bled at this time.

As soon as I crawled under the truck yesterday I knew Midas hadn't adjusted the brakes after they rebuilt them and replaced the axle seal. The window on the side that had the leaking seal didn't have the rubber plug, but was filled with the caked oil/dirt combo that still covered the back of the backing plate. Like the old saying goes, you can get good, fast, or cheap, maybe 2 of the three, but you can't get them all. Midas was fast, definitely not cheap, and apparently not good.

Thanks for the help! I started this thread because I had a feeling new pads and rotors weren't the answer.

 

[koda2000]

Well, based on a test drive around the neighborhood that included about 10 brake applications, and the drive to church and back this morning, it seems you nailed it koda. I adjusted the rear brakes and it stops and feels much more like it should. I don't think the brakes need bled at this time.

As soon as I crawled under the truck yesterday I knew Midas hadn't adjusted the brakes after they rebuilt them and replaced the axle seal. The window on the side that had the leaking seal didn't have the rubber plug, but was filled with the caked oil/dirt combo that still covered the back of the backing plate. Like the old saying goes, you can get good, fast, or cheap, maybe 2 of the three, but you can't get them all. Midas was fast, definitely not cheap, and apparently not good.

Thanks for the help! I started this thread because I had a feeling new pads and rotors weren't the answer.

Glad to have been of help. I think I might have one of those rubber plugs laying around somewhere. I'll mail it to you if you want it. Just PM me your address and I'll go look for it.

Another thing that can cause less than ideal braking is if the front pads and rotors are "glazed". Assuming you don't having them turned (personally I'm not a big fan of turning rotors unless they're warped) you should always at least brake the glaze on your rotors using some emery cloth in a circular motion. You can do the same to your pads if they're not ready to be replaced. Then make 4-5 short stops from around 45-50 miles an hour. This will transfer some of the pad material to the rotor and the front brakes will stop much better.

 

[429CJ-3X2]

Thanks, but I'll just get one at the parts store, or more likely get a handful next trip to the salvage yard. Or I could get one off our Aerostar that needs to be hauled off.

I've never had rotors turned. Had some that should have been though. With rotors as relatively inexpensive as they are, I'd rather buy new when needed and get the job done instead of having the vehicle down while the rotors get turned. I grew up on a farm 10 miles from town, so making multiple trips wasn't an option. Now I have 10-12 parts stores within 5-6 miles. I tried scuffing these rotors awhile back, but it didn't help since the real problem was in the rear. I wonder if new pads are in order now since the fronts have been doing all the stopping and may not bite like they could anymore.

 

[koda2000]

Thanks, but I'll just get one at the parts store, or more likely get a handful next trip to the salvage yard. Or I could get one off our Aerostar that needs to be hauled off.

I've never had rotors turned. Had some that should have been though. With rotors as relatively inexpensive as they are, I'd rather buy new when needed and get the job done instead of having the vehicle down while the rotors get turned. I grew up on a farm 10 miles from town, so making multiple trips wasn't an option. Now I have 10-12 parts stores within 5-6 miles. I tried scuffing these rotors awhile back, but it didn't help since the real problem was in the rear. I wonder if new pads are in order now since the fronts have been doing all the stopping and may not bite like they could anymore.

I always get brake pads from AutoZone because they will replace them free whenever you want. They don't have to even be worn out. O'Reilly's started replacing them for free too, but only if you could produce the original receipt. I don't know about Advance and NAPA. I use the AutoZone brand ceramic pads in the front. They work well and don't dust up the wheels. They used to be called C-Max, but now they're a Duralast brand (same pads though and the free replacement carries over). Believe me, AZ loses money on me... "See you again boys"...

 

[429CJ-3X2]

I finally drove the truck for more than just the test drive yesterday. A few miles on the freeway at 60-65, and several miles at everything under that speed with multiple stops, and the truck definitely stops much better. The pedal travel and feel are what they should be now.

 

[koda2000]

I finally drove the truck for more than just the test drive yesterday. A few miles on the freeway at 60-65, and several miles at everything under that speed with multiple stops, and the truck definitely stops much better. The pedal travel and feel are what they should be now.

Congrats!