Replaced left hydraulic chain tensioner now really loud?

[mmasire88]

So, basically as the title states I replaced my left hydraulic chain tensioner and it started up clattering extremely loud. The old tensioner was pretty warn and had a good bit of play in it and the new one is very very firm. My question is why would the new much firmer tensioner be noisier than the old worn out one? It seems to have quieted down a little bit over time but it's still very noisy. Does it take time for the new tensioner to get oil pumped into it?

 

[mmasire88]

Figured I'd do a quick update if anybody else is wondering. After driving my explorer a while the tensioner seems to have quieted down significantly. It has eliminated the rattles I was having while accelerating as well as cold start rattles. However, it's still sounds like marbles are being tossed around in there when idling.

 

[2000StreetRod]

marble sound

The rattling marble sound is often an indication of a failed right cassette guide. Slack in the chain allows it to strike the guide upper positioning post.

The rattle decreases as oil is transferred from the chain to the post.

 

[mmasire88]

I took it out again for a little bit tonight, and it has completely stopped rattling. I'm not getting any sort of rattling at idle, nothing during acceleration overall it sounds like a brand new motor. I can't even tell it's running! This thing is giving me whiplash...To order timing chains + ford cam tools or not to order?

I think I'll pull the valve cover off and inspect the timing chain myself. I'll be honest, I'm a little scared because I literally just finished putting my audis 1.8T motor + new transmission in about 3 days ago...was hoping to catch a break but than I realized this is the real world.

 

[2000StreetRod]

I would wait

I would wait for a cold engine start after the vehicle has been sitting overnight or longer. Then if you hear rattle for more than a few seconds on engine start I'd pull the valve covers. As I recall its a lot less work to pull the valve covers on a 2004 than a 2000. After I replaced all of my timing chain related components at around 150K miles I still had persistent cold start rattle for a few seconds. I couldn't stand the noise so I installed a pre-oiler that totally eliminated the rattle.

 

[mmasire88]

I would wait for a cold engine start after the vehicle has been sitting overnight or longer. Then if you hear rattle for more than a few seconds on engine start I'd pull the valve covers. As I recall its a lot less work to pull the valve covers on a 2004 than a 2000. After I replaced all of my timing chain related components at around 150K miles I still had persistent cold start rattle for a few seconds. I couldn't stand the noise so I installed a pre-oiler that totally eliminated the rattle.

I know exactly what your talking about. Prior to installing the new tensioner it would rattle for about 1 1/2 seconds everytime I started it whether it was cold start or warm. So far it hasn't rattled upon starting but I haven't let it sit all day for more than a few hours at a time.

Perhaps you can point me in the direction for a quality pre-oiler? I would be very interested in installing one.

Also, thanks for the replies. I'm very new to the 4.0L and trying to familiarize myself with the motor and any insight is very much appreciated!

 

[2000StreetRod]

pre-oiler

I installed an Accusump (see the link in my signature) but now would prefer an electric pump system. The advantage of an electric pump is it can pre-oil after an engine build and it simplifies oil changes. The disadvantage is it requires a pickup port in the oil pan and a hose from the pan to the pump. Also, 3 years ago I wasn't able to find a suitable pump. The disadvantage of the Accusump is that the oil in the cylinder has to be discharged to perform a complete oil change which means no oil pressure for the next engine start. Pre-oilers are not cheap but extend the life of all bearing surfaces in the engine.

 

[mmasire88]

I installed an Accusump (see the link in my signature) but now would prefer an electric pump system. The advantage of an electric pump is it can pre-oil after an engine build and it simplifies oil changes. The disadvantage is it requires a pickup port in the oil pan and a hose from the pan to the pump. Also, 3 years ago I wasn't able to find a suitable pump. The disadvantage of the Accusump is that the oil in the cylinder has to be discharged to perform a complete oil change which means no oil pressure for the next engine start. Pre-oilers are not cheap but extend the life of all bearing surfaces in the engine.

I must say very nice work on the Accusump. I enjoy looking at different people's DIY projects.

Update on my tensioner, figured I'd wait a few days and report back with some result. It has reduced any noises by I would say an easy 95%. I am getting no rattles during acceleration, around 3ish seconds on a cold start in the morning. The overall performance of the truck has greatly increased, the idle isn't jumping around or missing randomly anymore.

Now...I noticed at the gas station earlier today I parked the truck and all seemed very smooth and quiet. Started it back up about 4-5 minutes later, and the marble noise was back. Slight rev, took it away. Got home about 10 minutes later and it was perfect.

I'm assuming the left-upper chain guides are damaged. A chain, guides, and tensioner that are in good shape should not be making a metal on metal noise. So at this point, I"m looking at another 4x4 to drive this winter as I will not be able to get the explorer back into action before than, between going to college and working.

I want to do it all right the first time, so the motor will be coming out and all 4 chains will be getting serviced, valve cover gaskets, exhaust manifold gaskets, water pump. Any other suggestions? It's right at 172k miles now, the only leaks I've noticed were from the driver's side valve cover. Doesn't burn, leak, smoke aside from the VC's. The motor itself looks brand new from top to bottom. The inside of the oil cap looks very sludgey inside, not sure if it's worth tearing down and having the heads hot-dipped while it's apart or not. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated!

 

[2000StreetRod]

removing the heads

When you replace the cassettes be prepared to remove the heads. At some model year - possibly 2004 - the block or head casting was changed making removal/installation of the cassettes very difficult with the heads in place.

Make sure the rear main seal isn't leaking before removing the engine.

You may want to consider replacing the plastic thermostat housing with a metal one but they are pretty expensive.

 

[mmasire88]

When you replace the cassettes be prepared to remove the heads. At some model year - possibly 2004 - the block or head casting was changed making removal/installation of the cassettes very difficult with the heads in place.

Make sure the rear main seal isn't leaking before removing the engine.

You may want to consider replacing the plastic thermostat housing with a metal one but they are pretty expensive.

I'm not overly worried about cost. I just want my vehicles to be done correctly, and be reliable.

Now, I'm going to sound pretty dumb here because I have not gotten all the correct names figured out for all the parts and what not on this engine.

However, I was reading up a bit on what you mentioned above and removing the heads for the upper chain cassettes. A few people had mentioned that the new( perhaps the updated cassettes? or maybe it's just a certain brand kit) cassettes are held together by a c-clip at the pivot point. I was reading you can bend/break or whatever it takes the to get the old cassette out. When you go to install the new cassette, you can remove the c-clip on it and get the cassette in 2 pieces to get it installed.

However, since the clearance is so tight you can remove the shaft(jackshaft?) that runs through the center of the motor that connects the front/rear chains to the crankshaft and use that little hole for enough clearance to get the pin behind the cassette to re-connect the two pieces of the cassette?

This video I watched was on a 2002. Mine is a 2004, not sure if there are any major differences between the years.

 

[2000StreetRod]

installing guide assemblies

I agree that for the left guide assembly the point of interference is the pivot bushing.

My original 2000 guide had a pressed bushing instead of a circlip retainer and the OEM replacement I installed in 2010 was the same. The aftermarket units were more likely to have the circlip. I have another OEM set and a Cloyes set in my storage room. According the photos I posted in this thread SOHC V6 Timing Chain Parts Sources the Cloyes unit appears to have the circlip as does the latest OEM unit shown in post 14. This may have been done because of the interference problem. The bushing is accessible after removing the jackshaft primary chain sprocket.

If the cassette jackshaft sprocket is removed it is probably not necessary to remove the jackshaft to insert the circlip.

I had problems installing the rear cassette in 2010. The cassette guide, chain and jackshaft sprocket must be installed as an assembly. There's a tab on the guide that interfered with the head opening.

After several attempts with different orientations I was finally able to get it to clear the passage.

 

[mmasire88]

I've noticed quite a few pictures of the 4.0 motor internals look really dirty/sludgy. I can tell just from peering inside my oil fill tube that mine is going to look similar. When I have the motor out, would it be a good idea to remove the heads anyway and have the machine shop hot dip/clean them? Last year my audi's 1.8T almost destroyed the heads when the oil pick up tube got completely sludged up and lost oil pressure. Thankfully I shut it off in time and was able to replace the oil pump/tube before it left any permanent damage.

 

[2000StreetRod]

trapped oil return

I burned up the engine on my 94 Grand Cherokee V8. The oil return passages got clogged with sludge so after the engine ran for a while the oil was all in the heads and the oil pump had nothing to pick up in the pan. The oil pressure would drop on the gauge, I'd pull over as soon as I could and check the oil level. By then the oil had time to drain back into the pan so the oil level was normal. I changed the oil and the same thing would happen on the highway but not in town. I added a can of engine flush and let it sit in the pan for a whole day thinking the pickup was clogged and then changed the oil again. Later, on the internet I found that for that engine the problem was fairly common after a certain mileage due to poor return oil design in the heads. After that I started doing engine flushes every other oil change.

The sludge in my 2000 Sport was the worst I've seen in any of my previously owned vehicles.

The 1997 and 1998 models had a 2 inch thick dual row core radiator which was replaced with a 1 inch thick single row in 1999. A previous owner lived in Texas and the engine probably would over heat so he ignorantly removed the thermostat or installed a cooler than stock one. One of the first things I did after purchasing my Sport was to install a new 1997 radiator and a 190 deg F. thermostat. I've flushed and changed the oil multiple times each year since 2010 even though I only drive it about 3,000 miles per year and the engine is still not clean in the heads.

I'm concerned about damaging bearings using too strong of solvent in the heads and the block. If the cam bearings had bearing inserts or if the camshafts were removed then I would recommend soaking them. In the second case you could remove the solvent after soaking and then lube the bearing surfaces before assembly. By the way, some of the engine assembly lubes are reportedly like sludge and the oil filter and oil should be changed after running the engine for 15 to 30 minutes after a rebuild.

 

[mmasire88]

I own many audi a4's with the 1.8T motors. Their one of my personal favorites because their amazing cars for any type of weather, all wheel drive with electronic locking diffs. The 1.8T motor runs very very hot. The oil pan capacity in models prior to 2005 are not big enough. The oil doesn't get cooled properly and the added heat from the turbo bakes the oil and creates little chunks that will get sucked up into the pick-up tube and one day your(me) driving down the highway at 70mph and your oil pressure drops to 0 and you start rapidly overheating. Was able to lug it home about 2 more miles after letting it cool down. drop the oil pan and wha-laa pick-up tube was almost 100% clogged. Since than I've added an over-sized pan + intercooler and it has help significantly.

I was talking with a guy locally that I've been going to for years who owns a machine shop, he's very knowledgeable almost like he speaks to motors and knows exactly what they want. He suggested a product called Rislone. Said it's very light solvent, doesn't change the viscosity of the oil. Although it's not going to whip your engine into tip top shape and rid you of your sludge problems. But it will keep it from getting worse, and long term use will help break down sludge and keep it from re-building up in oil passages.

I used this in a 2.5L v6 (ford probe GT) after I spun 2 rod bearings. The motor only had 102k when it spun the 2 bearings, and was very, very nasty inside. I put 45k miles on that car in about 2.5-3 years after I rebuilt it. Prior to selling it I removed the valve covers to replace the VC gaskets, and the inside of the heads looked like the day I brought them home from the machine shop. Religious oil changes with mobile-1 synthetic every 4k miles with a bottle of Rislone and the inside of the motor had not changed one bit from the day I rebuilt it.

 

[2000StreetRod]

flushing vs treatment

My sludge is still bad enough that I doubt a treatment would be harsh enough to remove it in a reasonable length of time. When I had the valve covers and timing cover off I spent a lot of time with various size brushes and Gunk engine flush trying to manually remove as much as possible. If a treatment was harsh enough to remove what's left I would be concerned about seals leaking. My approach is to run synthetic oil with a quality filter and then flush the engine for 5 minutes at idle at alternate oil changes. When I use the flush I don't purge the Accusump for that oil change. That way I can force the oil that's been contaminated with flush out and dilute it before the next engine start.

 

[mmasire88]

I've witnessed somebody do a kerosine flush on a motor. so many parts kerosine w/so many parts oil. He let it run until the motor was warmed up, shut it off and drained it. It was absolutely amazing at how much sludge dumped out of the oil pan, never seen anything like it he'd have to get a screwdriver and unclog the drain hole with sludge. I personally would never do something like that. That small amount of time the seals were exposed to kerosine, who knows what it could do. Not to mention breaking up all that sludge at once, I'd be afraid that all those freed up pieces would clog passages us.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Gunk motor flush msds

According to the Gunk motor flush MSDS it is predominantly No. 2 diesel fuel and a significant percentage of solvent.

I follow the directions and only idle the engine in Park for 5 minutes and then drain. Gumout markets a professional engine flush that is 80 to 90% solvent. I suspect the greater the concentration of solvent the greater the sludge removal and chance of seal damage and passage clogging.

 

[mmasire88]

Well, went out and started the explorer this morning. Cranked over, fired up heard a small *pop* and chain rattle and died. Pretty sure either the guide completely broke, or chain snapped. Going to try and get around to pulling the intake, and valve cover off this week. Really didn't want to have to pull the heads, but it looks like the motors coming out and their coming off and getting new valves. I'll snap some pictures of the upper chain guide, which is the one I have been suspecting has been making all the noise.

 

[2000StreetRod]

guide failure?

I'm sorry to hear that. I suspect that a guide has failed and the associated chain slipped. The chains are very strong and rarely break.

When my chain rattle started at 150K miles I was in the middle of a custom tune and performing multiple WOT runs to maximum rpm. I was very lucky to finish the tune with no major problems. Then I immediately pulled the engine for cassette replacements.

 

[mmasire88]

Yea, if I turn the motor over you can hear the chain sliding around inside the front of the motor. Gonna dig into maybe tomorrow if I have a chance. Any way to tell if there's been pistol/valve collision without removing the heads? Maybe a compression test, but at that I'd have to redo the chains and might as well take the heads off while the motors already out. Something definitely broke in there, heard a really soft *pop* than the engine just died.