Should I waste an underdrive pulley on my '93 Ranger OHV?

[Carguy3J]

Well, pretty much what the title says.
I have a '93 Ranger 4.0L-OHV, 5spd, 4x4. The crank pulley is shot. It hasn't separated yet, but it is dry rotted and cracked, so it is going to be changed tomorrow.
I have a brand new Dorman stock-type balancer, which I actually bought for this truck a while back, knowing it would need to be changed.

I also have a brand new ASP underdrive crank pulley, that I bought for my '99 Explorer, which hasn't moved or ran in about 5 years. I eventually plan on getting the Explorer running again. However, I also plan on putting an M90 blower on it, via the RP Caster kit. So, then I wouldn't be able to use the U/D pulley anyway. Of course, it could be several more years before I even get it running at all.

On the other hand, I currently drive the Ranger on an almost daily basis. I use it as a work truck, and I put a lot of miles on it. So, any improvement in MPG would be nice, plus the increased power would be good too.

The thing is, while I understand the idea behind the u/d pulley, and how it "helps", I don't really see where I would gain anything on the Ranger. It doesn't have a/c (didn't come with it), I don't know if I really want less p/s "boost" at low speeds ( I spend a lot of time in traffic, as well as maneuvering in tight spots), and I'm also putting in an electric fan tomorrow, so I don't think I really want to slow down the alternator. So, if I then O/D the alternator w/ a smaller pulley, what am I really gaining by "using up" a $300 pulley (roughly)?

Am I wrong? Will I still see a noticeable benefit from installing the u/d crank pulley? What about if I then speed the alt back up some, with a smaller alt. pulley? Will that cancel out any small gains I might have made?

On that note, I can't really afford an ASP alternator pulley, nor do I have the time to get one. I have a couple of later model Ford Alt. pulleys I pulled from junk alternators. They are smaller diameter, and the shaft appears to be the same inside diameter. The only thing is, they are 8-rib pulleys, whereas the Ranger uses a 6-rib belt. It appears that the first 6 ribs of these other pulleys line up with my stock pulley. The belt appears to sit in the grooves correctly. Would it be ok to use an 8 rib pulley, with a 6-rib belt? My gut answer is that it looks like it would be fine, but I though I'd get some additional opinions.

 

[Dono]

Noi issue on the 8 rib pulley using a 6 rib belt. That's what Im doing on my M90.

As for the udp? Ive never used one. Heard great things about them. I guess you would really be looking at gains from slowing down your water pump and power steering. I have not heard of anyone ever having issues with either of these accessories.

As for the alternator and the e-fan? The efan would hopefully only have to run in slow stop and go traffic when its hot out. Your battery should handle anything that your alternator can't for short periods. I guess it would also depend on the efan you were going to use. Id be a bit more concerned about the really big, high draw fans.

 

[Carguy3J]

Noi issue on the 8 rib pulley using a 6 rib belt. That's what Im doing on my M90.

Yeah, I thought about that after I posted it. I was pretty sure I had read about people doing that. Thanks for confirming it.

As for the udp? Ive never used one. Heard great things about them. I guess you would really be looking at gains from slowing down your water pump and power steering. I have not heard of anyone ever having issues with either of these accessories.

As for the alternator and the e-fan? The efan would hopefully only have to run in slow stop and go traffic when its hot out. Your battery should handle anything that your alternator can't for short periods. I guess it would also depend on the efan you were going to use. Id be a bit more concerned about the really big, high draw fans.

Well, that's exactly when I would be concerned abut it. The same conditions which create the greatest need for the fan to run, are exactly the same ones which would provide the least amount of charge from the alternator - slow/non-moving prolonged traffic. In fact, w/ the u/d crank pulley, its possible the alternator might not charge at all at idle. At the very least, it would be hard on the battery, and the alternator. having to "catch-up" after every time I stopped at a light. Sitting in traffic long enough could actually drain the battery to the point of being a real problem. I could hold the rpms up a little occasionally, but that would give back at least some of the increased mpg.

The fan I'm using is an OEM Volvo fan, which I trimmed and fiberglassed into a stock Ranger shroud. I don't know for sure what it came out of, but it was something with an intercooled turbo. When I got it, the rad, ac condenser, and air-to-air intercooler were all still bolted together, w/ the fan. I don't know the CFM but, in its former life, it had to pull air through more then 6 inches of core thickness, between the rad, condenser, and I/C. So, I think it should move plenty of air through my little 1inch thick single core rad. I'm planning on using a cheap Autozone temp sensor/controller to trigger a 40 amp relay, which in turn will power the fan, with a 40 amp auto-reset circuit breaker in between.

 

[jd4242]

Udp is a great mod well worth it.fyi alt pullies run like $15 on ebay and if you not drawing a lot you won't even need it.crazy for not having it on already; )

 

[jd4242]

Yeah, I thought about that after I posted it. I was pretty sure I had read about people doing that. Thanks for confirming it.



Well, that's exactly when I would be concerned abut it. The same conditions which create the greatest need for the fan to run, are exactly the same ones which would provide the least amount of charge from the alternator - slow/non-moving prolonged traffic. In fact, w/ the u/d crank pulley, its possible the alternator might not charge at all at idle. At the very least, it would be hard on the battery, and the alternator. having to "catch-up" after every time I stopped at a light. Sitting in traffic long enough could actually drain the battery to the point of being a real problem. I could hold the rpms up a little occasionally, but that would give back at least some of the increased mpg.

The fan I'm using is an OEM Volvo fan, which I trimmed and fiberglassed into a stock Ranger shroud. I don't know for sure what it came out of, but it was something with an intercooled turbo. When I got it, the rad, ac condenser, and air-to-air intercooler were all still bolted together, w/ the fan. I don't know the CFM but, in its former life, it had to pull air through more then 6 inches of core thickness, between the rad, condenser, and I/C. So, I think it should move plenty of air through my little 1inch thick single core rad. I'm planning on using a cheap Autozone temp sensor/controller to trigger a 40 amp relay, which in turn will power the fan, with a 40 amp auto-reset circuit breaker in between.

Thinking way to much into it if a efan is all you run especially if you don't have ac.get a ebay alt pulley if your that worried. But bet you won't see any negative effects(even with stock pulley) if efan is all you are worried about.

 

[Carguy3J]

Thinking way to much into it if a efan is all you run especially if you don't have ac.get a ebay alt pulley if your that worried. But bet you won't see any negative effects(even with stock pulley) if efan is all you are worried about.

Yeah I guess.... I'm just being really careful, because I can't afford to get stuck an hour from home. The tow alone would kill me. I really do, unfortunately, spend a lot time in bumper-to-bumper traffic. I would also like to add a/c, if I can find a donor truck (or somebody who will sell me all the parts).

Also, as I said, I understand, in theory, why the u/d pulley would help, but I'm still looking for someone to convince me that I will notice enough of gain to justify putting this expensive part on a work truck. Especially since I bought it specifically for the Explorer, and I don't know if/when I can afford to buy another one; assuming they even make them anymore at that point. I guess I just kinda feel like I'm "stealing" from the Explorer, and sort-of starting to go down the path of cannibalizing parts which were meant for it. This in turn makes it less likely I'll ever get it running again, which is kinda sad....

Anyway, somebody please convince me I really should do this. Telling me what size belt I would need, w/ the U/D pulley, would sorta lead me in the right direction It's a 4.0L, w/ PS, no A/C.

I understand the bolt is torque-to-yield, and isn't "supposed" to be re-used; but so are FWD CV axle nuts, and good luck buying them without buying a new axle too. I, and every mechanic I talk to re-uses them all the time. You almost have to, as they can be hard to find at the parts store. So, if I can't find a new balancer bolt, I'll probably just re-use the old one, after drowning it in lock-tite. Has anybody re-used one and had it fail? Has anybody re-used one, and had many trouble free miles/years with it? Any thoughts on where to get one? Part#? Waiting for it to be ordered is not an option. I need it in my hand early tomorrow.

Thanks....

 

[jd4242]

Yeah I guess.... I'm just being really careful, because I can't afford to get stuck an hour from home. The tow alone would kill me. I really do, unfortunately, spend a lot time in bumper-to-bumper traffic. I would also like to add a/c, if I can find a donor truck (or somebody who will sell me all the parts).

Also, as I said, I understand, in theory, why the u/d pulley would help, but I'm still looking for someone to convince me that I will notice enough of gain to justify putting this expensive part on a work truck. Especially since I bought it specifically for the Explorer, and I don't know if/when I can afford to buy another one; assuming they even make them anymore at that point. I guess I just kinda feel like I'm "stealing" from the Explorer, and sort-of starting to go down the path of cannibalizing parts which were meant for it. This in turn makes it less likely I'll ever get it running again, which is kinda sad....

Anyway, somebody please convince me I really should do this. Telling me what size belt I would need, w/ the U/D pulley, would sorta lead me in the right direction It's a 4.0L, w/ PS, no A/C.

I understand the bolt is torque-to-yield, and isn't "supposed" to be re-used; but so are FWD CV axle nuts, and good luck buying them without buying a new axle too. I, and every mechanic I talk to re-uses them all the time. You almost have to, as they can be hard to find at the parts store. So, if I can't find a new balancer bolt, I'll probably just re-use the old one, after drowning it in lock-tite. Has anybody re-used one and had it fail? Has anybody re-used one, and had many trouble free miles/years with it? Any thoughts on where to get one? Part#? Waiting for it to be ordered is not an option. I need it in my hand early tomorrow.

Thanks....

Believe it was a 1" shorter belt, the length is part of the part number on your current belt.I TOTALLY think its worth it and the guy I sold mine to said he has a great increase in mpg with no bad effects. I have a thread or two about the udp if you search and need more convincing. I've also had a crank bolt fail, they are cheap.I would replace it if you have removed it before.

I can post the threads and part numbers tomorrow if you want but its bed time now.

 

[Carguy3J]

Believe it was a 1" shorter belt, the length is part of the part number on your current belt.I TOTALLY think its worth it and the guy I sold mine to said he has a great increase in mpg with no bad effects. I have a thread or two about the udp if you search and need more convincing. I've also had a crank bolt fail, they are cheap.I would replace it if you have removed it before.

I can post the threads and part numbers tomorrow if you want but its bed time now.

I just called ASP. They say that, with just the U/D crank pulley, the belt should be 2-1/4" shorter then stock. Adding a smaller alternator pulley will call for another 1/4" or so reduction in belt size, depending on the pulley size.

So, on my Ranger w/o air, it looks like I'll need a 78" belt, as the stock one is 80.5".

I also found a new crank bolt, in stock, at the local Ford dealer, for about $9.
So.... UD pulley here I come...... That is, if the rain holds off, as I am working outdoors.

 

[jd4242]

I just called ASP. They say that, with just the U/D crank pulley, the belt should be 2-1/4" shorter then stock. Adding a smaller alternator pulley will call for another 1/4" or so reduction in belt size, depending on the pulley size.

So, on my Ranger w/o air, it looks like I'll need a 78" belt, as the stock one is 80.5".

I also found a new crank bolt, in stock, at the local Ford dealer, for about $9.
So.... UD pulley here I come...... That is, if the rain holds off, as I am working outdoors.

Right on.let us know the results, think I gained around 3mpg and the guy I sold it to claimed higher gains.but I can't keep my foot outa it and my truck was nowhere near stock.Aldive (believe that was his name) report high gains and he thoroughly tested it and said it was the best bang for the cost

 

[jd4242]

May want to consider upgrading you alt to the OE 130 amp if your worried about amp draw.that's if your efan draws a lot or running a lot of other stuff.I picked mine up in the JY for think $30, little more than what an udp cost for the alt.just another option; )

 

[jd4242]

If you was local I would have gave you all my ac stuff.i have two complete sets here.i pulled all my ac stuff off all my trucks.It worked before I pulled it all out, i know people think im crazy for doing it.shipping it wouldn't be worth it tho.

 

[Carguy3J]

May want to consider upgrading you alt to the OE 130 amp if your worried about amp draw.that's if your efan draws a lot or running a lot of other stuff.I picked mine up in the JY for think $30, little more than what an udp cost for the alt.just another option; )

Money is in very short supply right now. Part of my hesitation in doing this is having to buy a new belt. So, a new alternator isn't really in the cards right now. Around here, no junkyard would sell an alternator for $30, especially not a 130 amp one. They'd probably want $60-$75, or more. Also, my experience hasn't been too great with junkyard alternators. The one on the truck now, took having 4 of them tested and rejected, before getting a good one. The guy at the junkyard wasn't going to give me another one, if this one was bad too. He would have given me a refund, but wouldn't have tried finding anymore.

A have a couple of smaller Ford 8-rib alternator pulleys laying around. I'll try one of them, and see what happens.

 

[jd4242]

Money is in very short supply right now. Part of my hesitation in doing this is having to buy a new belt. So, a new alternator isn't really in the cards right now. Around here, no junkyard would sell an alternator for $30, especially not a 130 amp one. They'd probably want $60-$75, or more. Also, my experience hasn't been too great with junkyard alternators. The one on the truck now, took having 4 of them tested and rejected, before getting a good one. The guy at the junkyard wasn't going to give me another one, if this one was bad too. He would have given me a refund, but wouldn't have tried finding anymore.

A have a couple of smaller Ford 8-rib alternator pulleys laying around. I'll try one of them, and see what happens.

I hear that and very true.I didn't even test mine, just needed the case to rebuild it to 220amp.I can look around in my belt collection and eee if I have a belt for you.they are all new and I have about 13 different ones the one I sold to the guy was for udp, alt udp and Ac.pretty sure I still have the no ac, udp and alt udp belt.shipping that would be dirt cheap and I have no use for it

 

[Carguy3J]

If you was local I would have gave you all my ac stuff.i have two complete sets here.i pulled all my ac stuff off all my trucks.It worked before I pulled it all out, i know people think im crazy for doing it.shipping it wouldn't be worth it tho.

Thanks for the offer. Maybe, if I can get the "bigger" stuff locally, I could take you up on some of the small/shippable hard to get stuff. Things like the interior HVAC controls. Junkyards don't want to be bothered with that stuff.

Do you know if I would need to change the entire heater box, or just install the evap core and related a/c stuff in my existing one?

In the meantime, I was thinking if installing a heater control valve, like in the 2nd gens, to bypass the heater core for the summer. At least I won't have super hot air blowing through the vents.

 

[jd4242]

Thanks for the offer. Maybe, if I can get the "bigger" stuff locally, I could take you up on some of the small/shippable hard to get stuff. Things like the interior HVAC controls. Junkyards don't want to be bothered with that stuff.

Do you know if I would need to change the entire heater box, or just install the evap core and related a/c stuff in my existing one?

In the meantime, I was thinking if installing a heater control valve, like in the 2nd gens, to bypass the heater core for the summer. At least I won't have super hot air blowing through the vents.

Whole box needs to be swapped.you can always pull one hose off and make it a closed loop.just use one hose from water pump to manifold, this is what I do in the summer

 

[Carguy3J]

Whole box needs to be swapped.you can always pull one hose off and make it a closed loop.just use one hose from water pump to manifold, this is what I do in the summer

Interesting. Thanks for the side-by-side pic. One thing I noticed is the plugs on the blower motor look different. What's the deal with that? It also looks like adding the a/c really makes things a lot tighter in the right rear corner of the engine compartment. Almost makes me have second thoughts about wanting to do it, considering how much I;m under the hood. It would seem that even doing plugs would be much harder with evap core in the way.

Also, it looks like that just unbolts from the firewall side. What about the in cab, under dash stuff, what would I need to change there, if anything (other then the controls ovbviously)?

As for the hose loop, yeah I could do that, but then I have to open things up every time I want to switch. I was going for something quick/easy and clean to switch on/off. This way, if we happened to get a chilly/damp day, I could easily still have some heat, especially for defrost. Plus, I believe the heater control valve still bypasses a very small amount into the heater core, even when its "closed", just to prevent air pockets and sludge buildup in the heater core. Allowing a 20 year old heater core to sit dry for several months is probably not a good idea, as years of deposits would likely turn to cement.. Yeah, yeah, I know I should flush it, or even change it, but I can't do it right now.

 

[jd4242]

Interesting. Thanks for the side-by-side pic. One thing I noticed is the plugs on the blower motor look different. What's the deal with that? It also looks like adding the a/c really makes things a lot tighter in the right rear corner of the engine compartment. Almost makes me have second thoughts about wanting to do it, considering how much I;m under the hood. It would seem that even doing plugs would be much harder with evap core in the way.

Also, it looks like that just unbolts from the firewall side. What about the in cab, under dash stuff, what would I need to change there, if anything (other then the controls ovbviously)?

As for the hose loop, yeah I could do that, but then I have to open things up every time I want to switch. I was going for something quick/easy and clean to switch on/off. This way, if we happened to get a chilly/damp day, I could easily still have some heat, especially for defrost. Plus, I believe the heater control valve still bypasses a very small amount into the heater core, even when its "closed", just to prevent air pockets and sludge buildup in the heater core. Allowing a 20 year old heater core to sit dry for several months is probably not a good idea, as years of deposits would likely turn to cement.. Yeah, yeah, I know I should flush it, or even change it, but I can't do it right now.

Its the same plug, one motor is a new replacement that has the pigtail.one bolt from inside rest are outside.o man does it take up some room, why I take mine off.changing plugs is a pita!! Never really thought about leaving it dry but that's a good point.

You see my post about me probably having a belt for you if you want it?

 

[Carguy3J]

Its the same plug, one motor is a new replacement that has the pigtail.one bolt from inside rest are outside.o man does it take up some room, why I take mine off.changing plugs is a pita!! Never really thought about leaving it dry but that's a good point.

You see my post about me probably having a belt for you if you want it?

Oops, I guess it got lost in everything else. Thanks, but I need something today. Well, it looks like tomorrow now, with the rain, but still quicker then shipping.

If it ends up being 78.5", Rock Auto has a Dayco belt for $13, and the 78" is $23. (Don't know why a 1/2inch SHORTER belt is nearly twice as much though????) I can get Advance to match that, if I buy over the phone, and pick up at the local store. Hopefully, its 78.5, but I suspect it will end up being the 78", if I change the alt. pulley. The local Advance is also right across the street from the Ford dealer with the crank bolt.

ASP's website says the UD crank pulley produces a full charge at 850 RPM (on a Mustang anyway). My truck idles at 750rpm, (currently produces 14 volts, at idle) so I think I will almost certainly need to do something with the alternator pulley.

Did you see the question I added to my last post, regarding the interior a/c stuff? What under dash / in cab stuff needs to be changed?

Also, dumb question, but is there a seal behind the crank pulley, that I can replace while its off, or is it just the oil slinger on the pulley? Is it ok to re-use the old slinger?

 

[jd4242]

Oops, I guess it got lost in everything else. Thanks, but I need something today. Well, it looks like tomorrow now, with the rain, but still quicker then shipping.

If it ends up being 78.5", Rock Auto has a Dayco belt for $13, and the 78" is $23. (Don't know why a 1/2inch SHORTER belt is nearly twice as much though????) I can get Advance to match that, if I buy over the phone, and pick up at the local store. Hopefully, its 78.5, but I suspect it will end up being the 78", if I change the alt. pulley. The local Advance is also right across the street from the Ford dealer with the crank bolt.

ASP's website says the UD crank pulley produces a full charge at 850 RPM (on a Mustang anyway). My truck idles at 750rpm, (currently produces 14 volts, at idle) so I think I will almost certainly need to do something with the alternator pulley.

Did you see the question I added to my last post, regarding the interior a/c stuff? What under dash / in cab stuff needs to be changed?

Also, dumb question, but is there a seal behind the crank pulley, that I can replace while its off, or is it just the oil slinger on the pulley? Is it ok to re-use the old slinger?

Full charge would be 90amps or so.I doubt your pull even half of that with everything running.if you only a 100 rpms under then your only losing like 20amps still not even half but if you got smaller pulley around or have the extra money I would throw a udp just for safety.

I honestly don't know as far as the dash controls, I left my ac controls in there.i would assume all the wiring is there just need to switch controls.as far as the box there is one bolt inside(the bottom most towards the door) and 3 outside.

You can replace the seal while you have it off if you want (there is one behind it, i replaced mine.make sure you press it in far enough where the plastic DOESNT rub it, why i had to replace mine)and that plastic piece on the pulley I'm not sure that really does anything but keep dirt from getting in and around the seal.I reused mine, it just pops off but be careful they break EASY!!

 

[Carguy3J]

Ugghh... This is turning into a never-ending disaster....

First, I ended up spending $35 on various electrical connectors, to install the fan. I figured maybe $10, but not $35!

Got the crank bolt at Ford, another $9. Now that I see it, I don't see what is so special about it, that a grade 8 hardware store bolt wouldn't have accomplished, but oh well I have it now.

I found 1 parts store that had the front seal in stock, and they wanted $14 for it! (More on that later)

I tried to locate 2 longer 8mmx1.25 bolts, for the puller, as the ones in the kit were slightly too short. Nobody had them. Oh well, in the end I couldn't of used them anyway... See below:

The real trouble started today. I did discover that I had longer 8mmx1.25 bolts, that came with the ASP pulley. Unfortunately I couldn't get them to thread into the balancer holes. I spent over an hour just trying to figure out what was going on, thinking maybe my ancient truck had different size holes, maybe even standard threads?? No, I finally decided they were the same thread, but they were just badly rusted up, from many years of road spray, salt,etc...
OK, so I'll just run a re-threading die through them, right? The first hole worked ok. On the second, my re-threading tap broke, in the hole. There was enough of a stub sticking out that I could have gotten an easy-out on it, except my smallest one (10mm) was too big.

I thought about using the larger, un-threaded, holes, and just using a bolt, with a nut behind the balancer, but there wasn't enough clearance, and I probably wouldn't have had a bolt long enough anyway. So, now what do I do?

I decided to try a regular 3-jaw puller, with the teeth around the outer edge of the balancer. Yes, it would destroy the rubber, but this thing was junk anyway. It did move the balancer a small amount, before the jaws slipped, and the puller popped off. Wasn't gonna work..... So now what?
Well, normally I wouldn't do this, but as I said, the stock balancer is already junk anyway. I managed to just barely get an air hammer in there, at the right angle, along with a curved chisel. I put the chisel on the back side of the balancer, just inside of the rubber ring, so I was pushing on the inner hub. It worked, fairly easily. My biggest concern at that point was having the balancer pop out unexpectedly, and fall on my head.
Ok, so its out. All's well right? Nope..... I decided to go ahead and change the crank seal. The old one came out easy enough. When I tried to put the new one in, it started to get "****ed" to one side. I get it straightened out, and thought I was good-to-go. When I tried to make sure it was seated all the way in, it went right through, and into the timing cover. I assumed there would be a "stop" built in to the cover, to stop the seal from going through, but apparently not! I was able to fish it back out, but the lip was cut. I can't get another seal until tomorrow, so I'm stuck; losing yet another day....

Oh, and I found that the upper rad hose is leaking, where I inserted the probe for the fan controller. I knew that was a bad idea, but this probe won't work anywhere else. It's too fat to fit in between the fins on the rad, and it's too long for that anyway; at least with a single core rad. Most of the probe would be sticking out the front, and reading cold air temps. I just pulled the hose back off, and jammed some black RTV in there. Hopefully that will seal everything up. I have to be careful not to tighten the hose clamp too much, or it will crush the capillary tube. I have a flex-a-lite controller, with a probe meant to go in the fins, but I was saving that for the Explorer. Plus, I'm not quite sure where it is.

Hopefully, this thing will be running tomorrow. I need to get back out and make some money.