Timing Chain Already???

[blwnsmoke]

I have never heard of a grid system. No idea what it is.

 

[Flying68]

I have never heard of matrix pricing before now. My dad was a GM/Ford tech for ~30 years and my step dad is John Deere tech. Both dealerships charged by standard labor hours x the labor rate. The good techs made more per hour because they could do the jobs faster than the standard hours, and the shop made more because they could turn more jobs. Guess this matrix could be the same thing that all trades are going to or just pricing it per job and not necessarily factoring in labor hours.

 

[MiWiAu]

I have never heard of a grid system. No idea what it is.

I have never heard of matrix pricing before now.

This is the best explanation I could find, and it's not very good: Flat Rate Grid Pricing Matrix

Basically, it appears that they start with a "standard rate", and for every additional hour over the first an additional ~1% is added to the hourly rate. The thought being (per the link above) that the more challenging jobs take more time and somehow justify a higher rate because they are more complex.

In my case, a 16 hour job is 15 hours over the standard 1 hour rate of $128.95. The job is so complex that challenging that the dealer deserves more pay to execute, so rate sees a approximately 15% surcharge. $128.95 + 15% surcharge = $148.29/hr (which is pretty close to the $147.38/hr in my original quote, probably off because it's not exactly 1% per extra hour). How sleazy is that?

I don't personally don't agree with this tactic, and I'll be sure I don't sign off on any future service under this pricing structure. Tell me time and tell me rate.

 

[blwnsmoke]

It should not matter how difficult it is. An hourly rate is an hourly rate in my opinion.

 

[RhinoQuartz]

It should not matter how difficult it is. An hourly rate is an hourly rate in my opinion.

Agreed. It sure sounds like a money grab, unless they charged less than a hour of labour for jobs that took less than an hour (eg, PCM reset).

 

[stephenl]

I've got this P0016 code on my 2013 Explorer Sport, with just 80K miles. The dealer at first claimed changing the oil would fix it..... I didn't question why, as it was booked in for that anyway - this car has been main dealer serviced since new, whenever the little sticker they put on the windshield said to.
The ford dealer just called us after their "diagnosis" and started mumbling incoherently about changing the water pump and something about the phasers and quoted me 20.5hrs of work at their labour rate of $180/hr; so that's pushing 4 grand without parts. When challenged on exactly why replacing the water pump would fix this, he didn't really have an answer. Pushed further he said they needed to check the oil pressure, which would take another 1.5hrs of "diagnosis".
So they were already booking me for 5 grands of work. and they hadn't even done the basic easy stuff to try and figure out the problem. When I asked if they had tested the sensors; more crap, so no then.

This is a main ford dealer, who I have been a customer of for 8 years. How can a Ford dealer have less clue, after having the car for 2 days, than I can with 30 minutes on the internet?

I'm taking it to a local garage and I'll let you all know how I get on.

 

[94Eddie]

Drive it as little as possible until you know the cause of the problem. If the water pump is going it can fail catastrophically and destroy your engine in less than a minute and take out your turbos.. Then you will have an $8k-$10k repair bill. The pump is an internal design and can dump all the coolant into the crank case in seconds when it fails. On a non-turbo 3.5L engine the price of a water pump replacement is typically $1.5-$2k plus another $700 for new timing chains and guides. The fact yours is a turbo engine might make the price higher but no where near in excess of $4k. Make sure the local shop knows what they are doing because changing the water pump is a complicated undertaking.

 

[03WIExplorerLtd]

Drive it as little as possible until you know the cause of the problem. If the water pump is going it can fail catastrophically and destroy your engine in less than a minute and take out your turbos.. Then you will have an $8k-$10k repair bill. The pump is an internal design and can dump all the coolant into the crank case in seconds when it fails. On a non-turbo 3.5L engine the price of a water pump replacement is typically $1.5-$2k plus another $700 for new timing chains and guides. The fact yours is a turbo engine might make the price higher but no where near in excess of $4k. Make sure the local shop knows what they are doing because changing the water pump is a complicated undertaking.

180 hr is a rip off

 

[stephenl]

Thank you for your replies. I'm left wondering again, what does the water pump have to do with this? I appreicate that while it's all apart it is good practice to swap it out for a new one and I won't hesitate to do that, but I can't think of any reason why I should suspect it is an issue that would generate a P0016 code.

 

[Odrapnew]

You sure they didn't just say that the water pump should be changed while they are in there?

 

[94Eddie]

Thank you for your replies. I'm left wondering again, what does the water pump have to do with this? I appreicate that while it's all apart it is good practice to swap it out for a new one and I won't hesitate to do that, but I can't think of any reason why I should suspect it is an issue that would generate a P0016 code.

I also can't see a water pump throwing a timing code unless it has failed and taken out the engine. Also, timing chain and guide failures are rare on the 3.5L/3.7L engines. Other than the water pump failing it is darn near bullet proof if maintained properly. I can see them recommending a water pump replacement if the timing chains/guides are being replaced. There is a weep hole in the timing cover for coolant to flow from it the water pump is failing slowly. Ask them if they see signs of coolant coming from this area. Have you been experiencing coolant loss lately as this can be a sign of a water pump failing. Check the oil for any chocolate milk type substance on the dip stick and on the inside of the oil fill cap. If they say the pump is going out then they should have seen one of these signs to make them think so. Also, $180/hour is a very high price for labor rates.

 

[boominXplorer]

Actually if the water pump begins to bind it will throw bank 1 phaser codes. I have seen phasers fail without a water pump issue though. Both repairs include timing cover removal and you definitely want to replace the water pump while your in there. If there's no sludge and the motor "sounds" fine then you have good oil pressure. Like others mentioned check your oil for coolant contamination and possibly stop driving it.

 

[stephenl]

I think the service monkey just garbled the message about the work and "tell him you might as well change the water pump while you are in there" became "this is caused by the water pump".
Nevertheless I shall be checking the oil and filler cap immediately.
Just retrieved the car from the dealership, they presented me with a bill for $180 for informing me it has a P0016 code and "suspect phasers". I questioned why I was being charged $180 for being told what I told them when I took it in and asked to speak to the service manager. I was also clutching 2 TSB's about this issue, both of which quote under 10hrs labor to fix it, with a view to the question "why are you quoting 20.5hrs?".
Anyhow, apparently the service manager was too busy to talk to me and my car appeared and the woman at the desk told me I was all set. Didn't pay.

What a bunch of gibbons- 2 days they had the car and they did nothing.
This happened before when the PTU went bad (@60K) and I ended up doing that myself, because I literally couldn't find anyone with a brain who was able to do it.

I'm back to square one