To 3.3 liter or to 3.0 liter, that is the question.

[don_her]

Big difference in treatment of the batteries though, in most devices batteries are charged almost 100 full and discharged maximally as well. In hybrids/plugins they are usually charged to 80% max and discharged to keep a 20% minimum.

So the battery will lose some life still but most of it should still be usable.

Also, im pretty sure there will form a new industry around replacing bad cells which you slowly can see happening already.

Lastly, if a 8 year old car only has 15k miles, would a (slightly) lower range be that bad?

I know anything with batteries isnt end all be all but then again, nothing is.

 

[J_C]

^ Shelf rot causes batteries to go bad even if they aren't discharged. That will happen to all the cells, wouldn't make sense to replace a few bad at a time then keep having to do that over and over, which you would have to do since they are all the same type, age, and environment.

Typical ratings for the batteries are 10-15 years and 100K to 150K mi. whichever comes first. The cost to replace, by far exceeds the sum of ALL costs (besides fuel and insurance) I've had to pay to keep my '98 on the road, over its entire lifetime and that even includes over $1K in rocker panel and dogleg, rust repair that I didn't DIY.

 

[don_her]

^ Shelf rot causes batteries to go bad even if they aren't discharged. That will happen to all the cells, wouldn't make sense to replace a few bad at a time then keep having to do that over and over, which you would have to do since they are all the same type, age, and environment.

Typical ratings for the batteries are 10-15 years and 100K to 150K mi. whichever comes first. The cost to replace, by far exceeds the sum of ALL costs (besides fuel and insurance) I've had to pay to keep my '98 on the road, over its entire lifetime and that even includes over $1K in rocker panel and dogleg, rust repair that I didn't DIY.

Yeah but rotting in this way mostly applies to batteries not being used and not being charged/discharged at all. And to be fair, for the usecase of most car drivers, they simply would do just fine.

 

[J_C]

^ No, shelf rot is a finite lifespan that happens no matter what.

It happens even in the most ideal of circumstances. There is no (reasonable) expectation that a hybrid will have the battery last 25 years.

Ask around, if you doubt this. If you concede it is true, then we are back to massive cost vs vehicle value.

It's not just fine, to have a vehicle where there's the dash lighting up and you want to sell it, or keep it and pay more for a battery than it's worth.

The only reasonable argument for a hybrid is if you intend to sell it by 10-15 year mark, which is when a non hybrid gets to be the least expensive to own per year if you DIY.

I suspect you haven't owned or repaired many vehicles.

 

[don_her]

Have owned plenty but usually get a new one after 4-6 years max.

The only thing extending that period for me now is Fords unability to deliver my explorer.

As far as repairs/mods go, done plenty myself. Both on new cars as on 20 yr old cars used for rallies/trips. Just that someone isnt agreeing doesnt mean they are nitwits

There will always be exceptions, but i do think for most people a phev or even full electric, will be the more economical option for them. And cost of battery replacement or repair will go down in time, when the market for such things expands.

Also, location matters.

Take the explorer i ordered for example. St would be what, 50k or thereabouts in the us?

Here it starts at 90k. And thats because its hybrid.

The normal st would add anywhere from 25-40k to that price.

Plenty of batteries can be swapped for that kind of money.

 

[J_C]

Why would the contrast be buying new vs batteries when it can be not buying either? That's when repairing what you have comes into play.

I'm still holding out for better battery tech, to reduce battery cost and increase material availability. We currently can't mine materials fast enough to ramp up production and the more vehicles there are, soon the replacement battery market will make it all the more difficult to meet demand, so I don't see battery prices dropping much any year soon.

 

[Spacey]

Volkswagen Group and a U.S. firm are separately setting up battery recycling plants in the U.S. The goal is to create self sustaining battery production facilities that reuse 100% of the electrolyte materials from existing batteries and eliminate or reduce the need to mine lithium for battery production. From what I have read it seems the electrolyte can be continuously recycled and reused.

 

[J_C]

^ Better than nothing but impossible to eliminate the need for new materials because the adoption rate is increasing. With current EV and hybrid sales around 11%, if they last a decade, then a decade from now, at best that only supports the same 11% staying on the road or being scrapped then a new vehicle has to be made to replace it.

Practically everyone in the industry agrees that there won't be enough batteries to support the investments already made.

EV battery costs could spike 22% by 2026 as raw material shortages drag on

E Source estimates battery cell prices will surge 22% from 2023 through 2026, peaking at $138 per kilowatt-hour.

www.cnbc.com

EV battery shortage - Google Search

www.google.com

 

[Spacey]

One would expect the number of vehicles in service to plateau at some point. At which time, if the report is correct, the demand for new raw materials should drop significantly as recycling meets most of the demand. Certainly true that all of this is new and the realities of the future may differ.

 

[J_C]

^ The plateau looks like it is going to be caused by a battery shortage. At that point, to sustain the same EV/hybrid sales rate, they will have to keep mining for more materials, and at best, recycling could only keep the vehicles already on the road, supplied with new batteries to stay on the road.

Then there will be even more EVs and hybrids on the road needing new batteries eventually. Recycling will never come close to meeting demand as the fleet size continues to increase, even if the yearly sales % stayed at 11%.

I appreciate what you're stating, that it would be the # on the road that plateaus and I agree with that, but I don't think they will ever stop *mining* until they have turned over every rock and strained the oceans to get all they can... or switch to a different battery chemistry, whichever comes first. I predict both of these will happen simultaneously, that materials will become so costly that they have no choice but to switch chemistries even if the replacement is no better otherwise.

 

[don_her]

Same goes for fossil fuels doesnt it?

 

[J_C]

^ There isn't a shortage of fossil fuels *yet*. When that day comes, sure, except it is a bit different because if push came to shove, we can make alcohol from starch and cellulose rich crops, AND, these crops 'sink away the same carbon that they later release when the fuel is burned, do not contribute to increased CO2 levels if we develop cleaner, more efficient methods of growth and conversion. I am not talking about just corn, rather a global effort like, every lawn clipping has a purpose. It's all solar energy captured and potential fuel.

Battery materials we have a shortage of, soil and sun, not so much. Ideal climates should have the real estate devoted to biomatter for alcohol production. It is the only thing close to sustainable given the current tech we have.

I'd prefer a sustainable battery tech, but am not holding my breath as it has been over a century that people have tried, and still not there yet.

This is getting too far off topic, so that's all I'm stating on the matter.

 

[Bradhenry1957]

Welcome to the Forum.
According to the Ford Production Schedule, the final date to order a 2022 Explorer was July 15th.

Peter

Which is why I'd wait for the 2023's

 

[Rocketbob]

Howdy,
I'm seriously looking at ordering a 2022 Platinum Explorer and according to my nearby Ford dealership I should be able to order one sometime next week (apparently they are not taking orders currently?). The only additions I was thinking were: Star White, 600A Package, Premium Technology Package, Splash Guards, Floor Liners, and Intelligent 4WD. Currently I'm thinking of ordering it with the 3.3L Hybrid but is this the best choice? Or I could also order it with the 3.0L EcoBoost. Ford lists the 3.0L EcoBoost with 365 HP and 380 ft/lbs or torque. Ford does not specify what the 3.3L Hybrid puts out. Ford also doesn't list the fuel economy of either engine which is important to me. Please give me your impressions of what is the better motor and why. Your input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

My experience with fuel economy in my 2020 Explorer ST has been excellent daily driving I get 21.5 mpg and recently took a 6 hrs trip and averaged 24.1 to 26.5.

 

[peterk9]

My experience with fuel economy in my 2020 Explorer ST has been excellent daily driving I get 21.5 mpg and recently took a 6 hrs trip and averaged 24.1 to 26.5.

Welcome to the Forum.
Is this really your first post in 12 years?

Peter