Transmission will only Shift when Drive Shaft is out

[Chris1955]

I've got a '98 Ranger XLT, 5 speed manual transmission, 2 wheel drive, 2.5 liter engine, approx 156,000 miles. Over the past few months, I had 3 or 4 instances of difficult shifting, going from 1st to second. Two weeks ago it would not shift into first from neutral. I was able to force it into second, and limped home in second. It would not shift into any gears with the engine running. I removed the transmission, pressure plate and clutch. The clutch was damaged, one of the springs had come free and was lodged in the pressure plate spring fingers. I replaced the clutch, not the pressure plate (it did not appear to be damaged). I put everthing back together, bled the hydraulic clutch system. My problem is that I cannot shift from or into any gear with the engine running with the drive shaft in place. If the drive shaft is removed, I can shift smoothly into all the gears with the engine running. I opened up the differential case and found no problems, everything turns smoothly. I take it that I have a transmission problem - my plan is to get one from the auto wrecking lot ($350 to $450). I'm not a transmission guy, but would be willing try to fix it myself. Any thoughts about what might be wrong, and if I could fix it for less than the cost of used transmission? Thanks.

 

[NHRA]

did you put the clutch in backwards if not then it's probable the pressure plate. start the truck and have someone push in the clutch have it in gear keeping the clutch in and check to see if the tail shaft is spinning. If it is the clutch might be in backwards,piolt bushing is stuck to the shaft,pressure plate is bad or possably the flywheel and pressure plate are badly burnt.

 

[BrooklynBay]

Welcome to this forum! Did you align the clutch with a clutch alignment tool? #47 in my list of useful threads might help you rebuild your current manual transmission.

 

[Chris1955]

To NHRA -
I started the truck with the clutch depressed and the transmission in neutral -the tail shaft nonetheless spun. I did the same thing again but with the transmission in first and the tail shaft spun. I understand this to indicate that the transmission is not disengaged from the engine.

The clutch really can only go in one way - with the high side/protuding side of the center portion of the clutch facing the transmission and away from the flywheel. It won't work the other way (high side/protruding side of the center portion facing the flywheel) as the flywheel is not sufficiently "dished out" in the center to accept the high side/protuding side, and lay flat against the flywheel. The clutch wasnt even marked "flywheel side" presumably because it could only go one way. The shop manual also shows the high side/protruding side facing away from the flywheel.

I checked the pilot pushing when the transmission was out and it seemed ok. The portion of the transmission shaft which rides in the pilot bushing looked ok (smooth, not burned/discolored). I lightly lubricated both before putting them together. Nonetheless, I will pull the transmission again and replace the pilot bearing.

I will also replace the pressure plate -but neither it nor the flywheel appeared to be burned or damaged. My guess is that a junk yard wouldnt sell me a flywheel alone (I would have to buy an engine to get a flywheel) - so I probably wont replace the flywheel at this time.

To BrooklynBay -
I did use a clutch alignment tool to center the clutch with the flywheel. I can tell from a small viewing port in the clutch housing on transmission that the clutch is engaged with the splines on the transmission shaft.

To Both -
I guess whether the transmission is damaged is "to be determined" at this point. I first have to get the tail shaft to stop spinning, which should be due to a problem with the pilot bearing,pressure plate, clutch and/or flywheel. If all are in good working order then there is no way that the tail shaft would spin when the clutch is disengaged -even if the transmission is in fact damaged internally - is that your thinking?

Thanks - I really appreciate your advice.

 

[gijoecam]

It's not likely a transmission issue. IMHO, it's a (relatively) simple clutch issue. It's either not fully disengaging the clutch when you press the pedal (air in the system?) or it's disengaging, and not allowing the input shaft to stop turning (pilot bearing). Here's a simple check for the pilot bushing/bearing:

With the engine off, engage first gear.
Start the engine. If the clutch is disengaged, the truck will not move.
Push in the clutch.
Shift to neutral but CONTINUE TO HOLD the CLUTCH disengaged.
Do a 5-count
Attempt to shift back into 1st gear.

If it lets you shift (doubtful) the pilot bearing is working fine. If it doesn't allow you to shift back into gear, it's likely the pilot bearing dragging on the input shaft, which causes the input shaft to spin. Generally it's not something that happens all-of-a-sudden. It'll start getting progressively worse over time, but I suppose anything's possible.

Let us know what you find!

-Joe

 

[Chris1955]

To GIJOECAM -

Thanks - I think your right that its likely not the transmission.

I watched for pressure plate movement as the clutch pedal was being depressed and released as best as I could through the viewing opening near the bottom of the clutch housing. Although the throw out bearing moves the pressure plate fingers (probably a less than an inch) when the clutch pedal is depressed, this does not appear to be enough. Through the viewing opening I can see a portion of the edge of the pressure plate disc which actually contacts the clutch. The disc does not pull back from the clutch disc when the clutch pedal was depressed.

My results from the tests you recommend are below

With the engine off, engage first gear.
Start the engine. If the clutch is disengaged, the truck will not move.

TEST RESULTS: Even with the clutch pedal depressed, the truck moves when its started in first gear

Push in the clutch.
Shift to neutral but CONTINUE TO HOLD the CLUTCH disengaged.
Do a 5-count
Attempt to shift back into 1st gear.

TEST RESULTS: It wont even let me shift to neutral from first gear with the clutch depressed.

I think its the pressure plate and/or air in the system, but I'm going to replace the pilot bearing as well. I'll check the flywheel again to make sure its surface is not distorted. It did not appear to be discolored or burnt. I'll apply force to the pressure plate fingers when its off the vehicle to see if the contact surface moves, and if so, how much the pressure plate fingers have to move in order for the plate to pull back from the clutch.

Thanks. Hopefully I can get it back on the road this Saturday.

 

[NHRA]

Chris 1955, you can take the flywheel to the machine shop and have it turned,just like a brake drum. As for your pressure plate I would get a new one but that's me. Take some emerycloth clean the inputshaft,put a new pilot bushing also. My friends ford was doing the same thing he changed all the parts except the slave cylinder and thats what it was. when you buy a clutch and pressure plate you get the cylinder. GOOD LUCK keep us up to date.

 

[Chris1955]

Guys -

Its back on the road! I tested the old pressure plate in a make-shift press and confirmed it was bad. I should have done this originally.

Unfortunately, I also learned the hard way not to rely on the representations of clutch kit manufacturers and parts houses who say that the conventional diagphram style of pressure plate can be used in lieu of the OEM self adjusting style that my truck came with. The convential diagphram style pressure plate was not equivalent, and did not work. I ended pulling the transmission again and spent about $70 more for a clutch kit with a self adjusting pressure plate which matched the old OEM pressure plate I replace. That one worked.

The problem with conventional diagphram pressure plate was that the fingers had to be depressed more than my hydraulic slave cylinder release bearing could push them in order to disengage the clutch disk. This I learned in part from my makeshift press as well

I have to admit that I'm disappointed with Ford. The hydraulic line from the master connects to the slave via some weird, cheaply designed "quick disconnect" fitting. As you know, the disconnect feature supposedly works by simply sliding a plastic ring which rides on the male portion of the coupling into the female portion of the coupling. However, this plastic ring and the coupling are exposed to the road blast from underneath. After 156,000 miles, this plastic ring and coupling are not exactly what they used to be when brand new, and the quick disconnect fitting dont work so go no more. But thats ok, because you can get a new hydraulic line (of course identical to the old one) from the Ford dealership (and only the Ford dealership) for a little over $100. I'm no expert, but I dont think thats the way to build brand loyalty.

The clutch master cylinder and slave cylinder were plastic, and together cost $140 - $150 at the parts house. The clutch release bearing is housed in plastic also. I also learned that once the push rod is inserted into the master cylinder, it can't be removed without damaging the master. It really doesnt have to be this way - very stupid to do things like this.

There are several other little dumb and annoying things that I saw that made me disappointed with the design of the vehicle. This is my first truck. I owned one other Ford, which was an '82 Escort. You may laugh, but it was actually a great vehicle - dependable, low maintainence, lasted for 14 years, with well over 250,000 miles. Given that Ford is famous for their pickups, I thought I'd do even better with a Ford pickup - but I'm not sure that this Ranger lives up to that reputation.

You guys are very knowledgeable, and gave me great advice on the truck. I really appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[NHRA]

Chris, All those car makers don't care if they did they would go broke. As for the escort I to had one great car my wife drove that car for 8yrs. till the doors fell off. It had well over 250,000 miles. I paid 200.00 for it,changed the seal on the camshaft.[preventive maintenance].If I only did that with the explorer,but the escort was in my younger days,I'm slipping in my older ones.