Will it cause any damage to remove front drive shaft on AWD?

[imp]

Hate to being up an old thread, but will this work in an 04 explorer 4.6 v8 awd?

@Brian Carter
Meaning remove the front driveshaft? In a word, yes, it will "work", whatever that means.

True All-Wheel-Drive requires that a THIRD differential be located in the driveline between the front and rear driving axles. The reason for this is that the wheels all turn at different speeds whenever motion is not in a straight line. Without that third differential action, the effect is to scrub the tires whenever traveling a curved path. On snow, mud, or gravel, that's accepted. On pavement, no.

The viscous coupling is used instead of a real geared differential for that third position because it's far less expensive to incorporate in the design. It's basically a baby "torque-converter" though it functions only as a fluid coupling. Some high-end "AWDs" actually use a third geared diff. imp

 

[Brian Carter]

@Brian Carter
Meaning remove the front driveshaft? In a word, yes, it will "work", whatever that means.

True All-Wheel-Drive requires that a THIRD differential be located in the driveline between the front and rear driving axles. The reason for this is that the wheels all turn at different speeds whenever motion is not in a straight line. Without that third differential action, the effect is to scrub the tires whenever traveling a curved path. On snow, mud, or gravel, that's accepted. On pavement, no.

The viscous coupling is used instead of a real geared differential for that third position because it's far less expensive to incorporate in the design. It's basically a baby "torque-converter" though it functions only as a fluid coupling. Some high-end "AWDs" actually use a third geared diff. imp

So will it cause damage? I believe my font differential is bad and it's the only vehicle I have

 

[imp]

So will it cause damage? I believe my font differential is bad and it's the only vehicle I have

@Brian Carter
If your '04 really has front differential trouble, the only to be realized from removing the front shaft is that it would relieve some of the load applied to the front diff. With the shaft out, the entire front diff. assembly is still driven whenever in motion, meaning both axle shafts are spinning, the gears are spinning, all the bearings are turning, and if any of them are failing, they eventually will.

To eliminate the front diff entirely from the picture would require removal of both axle shafts, thus making the vehicle basically a 2WD. This could be accomplished by removal of the shafts, disassembly of the inboard CV joints, and re-installing only the inner axle stubs into the diff.,, to prevent fluid leakage. I've never heard of anyone doing that, but it's doable. imp

 

[Brian Carter]

@Brian Carter
Meaning remove the front driveshaft? In a word, yes, it will "work", whatever that means.

True All-Wheel-Drive requires that a THIRD differential be located in the driveline between the front and rear driving axles. The reason for this is that the wheels all turn at different speeds whenever motion is not in a straight line. Without that third differential action, the effect is to scrub the tires whenever traveling a curved path. On snow, mud, or gravel, that's accepted. On pavement, no.

The viscous coupling is used instead of a real geared differential for that third position because it's far less expensive to incorporate in the design. It's basically a baby "torque-converter" though it functions only as a fluid coupling. Some high-end "AWDs" actually use a third geared diff. imp

So I was hearing this clunking nosing or clicking noise coming from the front. At first I thought it was the cv axel so I changed them both out, continued doing it. So I saw another video of someone else that sounded the same and it was the u joint. Changed it and it stopped for a couple days and came back after an hour trip, but this time the noise seems like it's happening when on turning mostly. I'm completely stumped on this. I figure it's my front differential but it's not always constant.

 

[imp]

So I was hearing this clunking nosing or clicking noise coming from the front. At first I thought it was the cv axel so I changed them both out, continued doing it. So I saw another video of someone else that sounded the same and it was the u joint. Changed it and it stopped for a couple days and came back after an hour trip, but this time the noise seems like it's happening when on turning mostly. I'm completely stumped on this. I figure it's my front differential but it's not always constant.

@Brian Carter
Up front, you have only one U-joint, located at the front end of the front driveshaft. The rear end, at the transfer case has a specialized C-V joint. Noise occurring only during turns is usually caused by front wheel bearings.

Have you driven it with the front shaft removed? Noise gone, that implies the U-joint and driveshaft CV as suspects.

imp

 

[Brian Carter]

@Brian Carter
Up front, you have only one U-joint, located at the front end of the front driveshaft. The rear end, at the transfer case has a specialized C-V joint. Noise occurring only during turns is usually caused by front wheel bearings.

Have you driven it with the front shaft removed? Noise gone, that implies the U-joint and driveshaft CV as suspects.

imp

It has done it also driving straight. Just since I replaced the u joint it has started it doing it mostly on turns. I will be removing the axel this weekend and test driving it to see if it's coming from that. Doesn't bad wheel bearings make a squealing sound most of the time and not a clicking/clunking sound? And yesterday when I drove it, it started vibrating really bad in the cab going 40 to 45 mph.

 

[Brian Carter]

@Brian Carter
If your '04 really has front differential trouble, the only to be realized from removing the front shaft is that it would relieve some of the load applied to the front diff. With the shaft out, the entire front diff. assembly is still driven whenever in motion, meaning both axle shafts are spinning, the gears are spinning, all the bearings are turning, and if any of them are failing, they eventually will.

To eliminate the front diff entirely from the picture would require removal of both axle shafts, thus making the vehicle basically a 2WD. This could be accomplished by removal of the shafts, disassembly of the inboard CV joints, and re-installing only the inner axle stubs into the diff.,, to prevent fluid leakage. I've never heard of anyone doing that, but it's doable. imp

Here is the video of what it's doing. I replaced the u joint and it stopped for a day but came back.

 

[Brian Carter]

So I took off the front drive shaft and the noise stopped. Next question is what could it be? I replaced the u joint. Could it be the shaft itself? Or maybe I put the u joint in too tight? Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated, thanks.

 

[neilpridenz]

Can't add anything much at this stage sorry but very interested in this thread as I started having noise from front of 04 Explorer 4L XLT - initially thought it was noisy tyres but it seems to be getting worse at a rate quicker that tyres could be wearing...

I replaced all 4 tyres with Bridgestone Dueller HT about a year ago and first noticed slight noise only on very smooth, wet roads. Has been increasing so I hear it about 50% of the time now, and I am now really wondering if the front diff is actually making the noise. The pitch of the noise follows road speed but the tyres are a highway pattern, the noise is almost exactly what I would expect to hear if I had knobbly tyres fitted (but I dont).

Front diff oil level is fine and oil looks OK from a sample at top of oil, I have not drained so unsure if anything ugly sitting in the lower part.

Is anyone experienced enough to say if that sort of noise is typical of a failing diff?

Also, what steps can I take to diagnose? I already jacked up front and rotated each wheel by hand, all I could hear was the scuffing of brake pads and couldn't get nearly turning fast enough to approach road speed. I'm planning to put the entire vehicle (ie front and rear) up on jack stands this weekend and put vehicle into drive, to see if it still makes the noise when wheels are not in contact with road.

Any other good dignostic ideas?

Thanks!

Neil

 

[Brian Carter]

What's t

Can't add anything much at this stage sorry but very interested in this thread as I started having noise from front of 04 Explorer 4L XLT - initially thought it was noisy tyres but it seems to be getting worse at a rate quicker that tyres could be wearing...

I replaced all 4 tyres with Bridgestone Dueller HT about a year ago and first noticed slight noise only on very smooth, wet roads. Has been increasing so I hear it about 50% of the time now, and I am now really wondering if the front diff is actually making the noise. The pitch of the noise follows road speed but the tyres are a highway pattern, the noise is almost exactly what I would expect to hear if I had knobbly tyres fitted (but I dont).

Front diff oil level is fine and oil looks OK from a sample at top of oil, I have not drained so unsure if anything ugly sitting in the lower part.

Is anyone experienced enough to say if that sort of noise is typical of a failing diff?

Also, what steps can I take to diagnose? I already jacked up front and rotated each wheel by hand, all I could hear was the scuffing of brake pads and couldn't get nearly turning fast enough to approach road speed. I'm planning to put the entire vehicle (ie front and rear) up on jack stands this weekend and put vehicle into drive, to see if it still makes the noise when wheels are not in contact with road.

Any other good dignostic ideas?

Thanks!

Neil

What's the noise? I've done a lot of research to figure out mine, turns out it's a failing driveshaft. The boot to the ball bearings has a big crack and bunch of dirt in it. But maybe I can give an idea. Do you have a video or audio?

 

[Brian Carter]

Well, I'm 99.9% sure it is the driveshaft propeller. I have a crack it the boot and a bunch of dirt and stuff is in it, and it doesn't make the noise with the driveshaft off. Looks like I will be buying one more part and I should be good. Thanks everyone for the help.

 

[imp]

Can't add anything much at this stage sorry but very interested in this thread as I started having noise from front of 04 Explorer 4L XLT - initially thought it was noisy tyres but it seems to be getting worse at a rate quicker that tyres could be wearing...

I replaced all 4 tyres with Bridgestone Dueller HT about a year ago and first noticed slight noise only on very smooth, wet roads. Has been increasing so I hear it about 50% of the time now, and I am now really wondering if the front diff is actually making the noise. The pitch of the noise follows road speed but the tyres are a highway pattern, the noise is almost exactly what I would expect to hear if I had knobbly tyres fitted (but I dont).

Front diff oil level is fine and oil looks OK from a sample at top of oil, I have not drained so unsure if anything ugly sitting in the lower part.

Is anyone experienced enough to say if that sort of noise is typical of a failing diff?

Also, what steps can I take to diagnose? I already jacked up front and rotated each wheel by hand, all I could hear was the scuffing of brake pads and couldn't get nearly turning fast enough to approach road speed. I'm planning to put the entire vehicle (ie front and rear) up on jack stands this weekend and put vehicle into drive, to see if it still makes the noise when wheels are not in contact with road.

Any other good dignostic ideas?

Thanks!

Neil

@neilpridenz

BE AWARE: If you have the 4X4 AUTO, 4X4 HIGH, 4X4 LOW system, you must use 4X4 HIGH engaged if running the driveline on jackstands. Otherwise, in 4X4 AUTO, differences in individual wheel speeds will cause all kinds of jerking and noises as it shifts in and out of 4X4.

If 4X4 AWD, no problem. Do this test carefully. I have, talked about it, isolated my rear end noise (wheel bearing), but received reprimands for it being a dangerous practice.

All kinds of things, IMO, become "dangerous" in the hands of the inexperienced or careless. imp

 

[neilpridenz]

@neilpridenz

BE AWARE: If you have the 4X4 AUTO, 4X4 HIGH, 4X4 LOW system, you must use 4X4 HIGH engaged if running the driveline on jackstands. Otherwise, in 4X4 AUTO, differences in individual wheel speeds will cause all kinds of jerking and noises as it shifts in and out of 4X4.

If 4X4 AWD, no problem. Do this test carefully. I have, talked about it, isolated my rear end noise (wheel bearing), but received reprimands for it being a dangerous practice.

All kinds of things, IMO, become "dangerous" in the hands of the inexperienced or careless. imp

Thanks for that Imp, I was certainly wondering about how to make sure the front wheels would rotate at an appropriate speed if all 4 wheels in the air and able to spin kind of independently.

I was relying on crossed fingers but what you say makes a lot of sense, I will ensure I'm in 4x4 High mode. I don't intend to do more than just listen for presence/absence of the noise, definitely not going underneath it !!

I'll probably sit in the vehicle so I can quickly get to the ignition key if anything unexpected happens !

Neil

 

[Brian Carter]

@neilpridenz

BE AWARE: If you have the 4X4 AUTO, 4X4 HIGH, 4X4 LOW system, you must use 4X4 HIGH engaged if running the driveline on jackstands. Otherwise, in 4X4 AUTO, differences in individual wheel speeds will cause all kinds of jerking and noises as it shifts in and out of 4X4.

If 4X4 AWD, no problem. Do this test carefully. I have, talked about it, isolated my rear end noise (wheel bearing), but received reprimands for it being a dangerous practice.

All kinds of things, IMO, become "dangerous" in the hands of the inexperienced or careless. imp

I've test driven it and no problems so far. I have AWD and getting the part as soon as possibld

 

[imp]

Thanks for that Imp, I was certainly wondering about how to make sure the front wheels would rotate at an appropriate speed if all 4 wheels in the air and able to spin kind of independently.

I was relying on crossed fingers but what you say makes a lot of sense, I will ensure I'm in 4x4 High mode. I don't intend to do more than just listen for presence/absence of the noise, definitely not going underneath it !!

I'll probably sit in the vehicle so I can quickly get to the ignition key if anything unexpected happens !

Neil

@neilpridenz
In my case, grumbling noise from the rear began almost perceptibly, not bad, drove on vacation, 4000 miles, by the time we returned, it was bad enough to worry about. I was guessing a bad differential carrier bearing, a nasty repair awaiting. I used my big long screwdriver as a stethoscope, and, of course, had to clamber about beneath the vehicle, while my wife ran the speedometer up to about 30 mph. Under the differential housing, the noise was perceptible, not worse under the pinion gear bearing area, though. Out by the left wheel suspension, another story, clearly worse. On the spindle, or knuckle, definitely the source: bad wheel bearing!

Turning the axle by hand with the weight of the wheel on it produced no discernible noise or roughness! I removed the knuckle, turned the bearing itself with my fingers, same thing, felt good! Was I barking up the wrong tree? The CV joint was the only other possibility, and the noise was not like any failed CV I could imagine. These axle bearings are not disassemble-able, but I HAD to know. I tore the bearing apart. Here's what I found:


If you understand tapered roller bearings, you can see the outer race was spalled, but not clear across the face upon which the rollers ride. Under load, however, the deformation of the parts present caused them to growl as they rode over the bad place. New bearing, noise gone! imp

 

[neilpridenz]

Thanks for that Imp, I was certainly wondering about how to make sure the front wheels would rotate at an appropriate speed if all 4 wheels in the air and able to spin kind of independently.

I was relying on crossed fingers but what you say makes a lot of sense, I will ensure I'm in 4x4 High mode. I don't intend to do more than just listen for presence/absence of the noise, definitely not going underneath it !!

I'll probably sit in the vehicle so I can quickly get to the ignition key if anything unexpected happens !

Neil

So, just to come to a conclusion with this, I put the vehicle up on jackstands and TBH it was a waste of time - the general engine noise was so loud there was zero chance of hearing the sound I was trying to track down.

I did more research and came to the conclusion it was most likely a wheen bearing as it did get louder and quieter as I went round gradual bends.

Got a pair of Timken hub/bearing units from RockAuto (great service BTW, ordered on the Monday, they got to me in New Zealand first thing on the Friday) and fitted them that weekend.

I was nervous about the job of removing them as all Youtube videos I had watched showed people having to pound savagely on them with sledgehammers for hours to get them out...

In the event the worst part for me (by far) was removing the three bolts that hold the hub to the knuckle - very hard to reach with ordinary tools due to the position of the CV shaft, even after loosening the axle nut and pushing the CV joint inwards.

In the end I used an old-style cranked ring spanner which got in there OK but was so short I didn't have much leverage - had to pound it hard with a club hammer to get it to move, and keep hammering it through about half the thread of the bolt to get it out. My one had both threadlocker and RTV from the factory gumming the bolts up - a real mission.

The hub actually came away from the knuckle really easily - it literally was a few gentle taps with a biggish hammer and the gap opened right up. We are lucky where I live that our winters are mild and the roads dont get salted - I suspect that is the reason it was easy, there was almost no corrosion on the alloy/steel joint.

In retrospect I think breaking the ball joints open and removing the CV shaft from the knuckle would have been a better / easier way, at least I could have got a socket on to the hub bolts and got them out much quicker.

Anyway, after replacing the hubs/bearings (very simple) it was like driving a different vehicle! Virtually no noise from the front now so happy I don't have an expensive diff rebuild on my hands.

Thanks to all who offered me advice!