05 Engine quits while driving.

[rcplanebuilder]

Hi all,

I'm a newbie here, but I'll start my first posting with a good humor video in exchange for your thoughts on it.

This is engine forum, and it might be better in the tranny, or elsewhere once we figure out what causes the engine to quit, but I need some thoughts on it first.

The short story is; problems on my new truck, after losing my beloved '97 to a deer.

After fuel guage issues, and idiot lights a day after purchasing it with 100 miles left on the warranty, (and after they did many things wrong), now...I am told there is nothing wrong with it. But there is.

The truck's engine will quit in certain areas and conditions. (Now I have proof with video), but the scenario I used to get the video is; when the CC is set to 40, going over a slight hill, the engine quits on the back side. Almost every time. The RPM's just slowly drop to 0.

After getting a new fuel pump, and sending unit for the guage issues, and re-map of the fuel system, (by the same guy who cut the tank straps off with no spare parts within 3 days delivery, and the same guy who left an impact socket attached on the drive shaft to shake the heck out of the truck), (who also claimed fuel tank work doesn't create vibrations).....it is anyone's guess. So far its NTF, can not duplicate problem garbage.

...Personally, I am thinking its a transmission problem. Its not letting it freewheel/coast, or downshift, or ??? ... Or maybe a gremlin lives under the bridge, or ??? I really need some experience here. At first I figured he didn't bleed the fuel system and an air bubble killed it, and maybe it would go away.

I was OK with it tonight, as it was too funny to be true. But after a week of crappy and faulty repairs and delays from the dealer.....I just may have to "Go Mike Tython" on thumbodies ath!" lol.

I bought it with 100 miles on the warranty, (and apparently I need to trouble shoot it for them), and asap so I can get it covered.

Help please...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez4NsUaiBx4

Yeah, it's awesome. (And just might be dangerous in traffic, lol, , especially if I was a little old lady who would freak out when the power steering pump stops ...)

Thanks in advance!

 

[budwich]

great video.... good work.... but now that you know the circumstance and "easily" repeat it, you need to adjust things to cause it not happen.... ie. increase speed (safely), decrease speed, cruise off-just gas pedal, etc. Of course, since you can easily replicate it, you can "readily" attach a monitor thru OBD to see what is actually happening.... my guess is fuel system is shutting down.... either pump or the computer regulation of the pressure (which I believe your system does). Most likely a "flakey" PCM or equivalent.

 

[Joe Dirt]

Faulty inertia switch?

 

[rcplanebuilder]

Thanks, it is going in tomorrow, but this could be a knock down drag out deal.

I did some more TS. In fact, I may get arrested for driving back and forth across the bridge at 2 AM....lol.

It will stall anywhere from about 35-42 MPH, but only with the CC on. It seems like it might die without it but catches itself. It will also not stall with the OD manually locked out with the button.

So it looks like an "anti-hunting' logic in the CC circuit has a hand in it. Either the logic is faulty, or the tranny is not doing what it is supposed to. It may be that the CC is telling the converter to stay locked, and not hunt with the CC on, or something, which is causing it to die.

But clearly the engine and fuel programming should be trying to keep the engine running when it goes below idle. Apparently, because it is "At the set speed" going down hill, it doesn't want to give it gas, but it should give it enough to keep the engine running.

So Fuel circuit, CC logic, and tranny logic are all suspects here imo.

Funny, I offered to drive it with an OBD II hooked up to record the data, but they would rather do it the hard way. We'll see.

Any other thoughts, or anyone seen anything similar?

 

[gijoecam]

Indeed, if it's repeatable as it seems to be, troubleshooting it should be very simple. Any good shop with an NGS or WDS should be able to connect it, take it for a drive, and log all the data, then see what's causing it.

I've heard of a few other people on this board having the same issue. I have yet to hear of the resolution, but I'm interested to find out what the cause and solution is.

Also, shoot me your VIN in a PM. I'll run the special service messages and broadcasts to see if there might be a known cause in the system... It may take some searching, but the fix may have already been found. Unfortunately, I can't search for them without a VIN.

 

[budwich]

that's great investigation work.... my money is on a faulty speed sensor along with maybe a "marginal" PCM module. Reasoning: when the CC is on, it takes "some signal" to "organize" its "thoughts" about what to do in terms of speed control.... however, it is taking the same signal that the PCM is using to help "initiate" things like fuel supply, injector "stuff", etc. Perhaps, there isn't enough output / input when both of these are "sucking" signal at that particular "area" of the output "spectrum" of the device... along with the input range to the PCM. Anyways, good luck.... hopefully they will find it before you have a "scary" outage and lose of control / steering at a critical time.

I would try changing out the sensor first, then the PCM next.

 

[rcplanebuilder]

Thanks guys. I offered to drive it through several failures with whatever system they wanted to hook up to it, but they declined. Maybe after a few more weeks they will change thier mind, lol.

No word yet.

The vin is 1FMZU73E05UA96865

Thanks for the help so far! Anything you come up with on a search will be more than appreciated.

 

[rcplanebuilder]

I found these on my car wizard.

http://www.mycarwizard.com/vehicles...n/2004-ford-explorer-eddie-bauer-40l-awd.html

Problem:WHEN USING THE CRUISE CONTROL ENGINE STALLED. CONSUMER CONTACTED THE DEALERSHIP AND THE MANUFACTURER, AND WAS TOLD THAT THEY WERE AWARE OF THE DEFECT. HOWEVER, THEY WERE UNABLE TO CORRECT THE DEFECT. *AK

Problem:VEHICLE STALLED ON 3 SEPARATE OCCASIONS WHEN DRIVING DOWN HILLS. VEHICLE WAS TAKEN TO THE DEALER, AND THEY WERE UNABLE TO DUPLICATE THE PROBLEM. *AK

Problem:WHILE DRIVING VEHICLE STALLED. CONSUMER PULLED OVER AND RESTARTED THE VEHICLE. DEALERSHIP WAS NOTIFIED, BUT DID NOT RESOLVE THE PROBLEM. *AK

Problem:2004 EXPLORER HAS STALLED TWO TIMES WITHOUT ANY WARNING. RESTARTS FINE. SEEMS TO BE WITH CRUISE ON AND GOING DOWN HILL AT SPEEDS BETWEEN 30 AND 40. HAS BEEN TO DEALERSHIP AND THEY SAY THEY CAN’T DUPLICATE. SEE SEVERAL OF SAME COMPLAINTS ON YOUR SITE. VERY DANGEROUS. HAS HAPPENED NUMEROUS TIMES DON’T KNOW WHAT TO PUT FOR INCIDENT DATE. *JB

ProblemT: THE CONTACT OWNS A 2004 FORD EXPLORER. SHE BROUGHT THE VEHICLE TO THE DEALERSHIP SIX TIMES SINCE 8-23-05. THE CAR STALLED AT 40 MPH OR LESS. THE DEALERSHIP REPLACED THE COMPUTER CHIP AND AN AIR FILTER PIECE. IT STILL STALLED. THE DEALERSHIP COULD NOT DUPLICATE THE PROBLEM. THE FIRST INCIDENT OCCURRED ON 8-19-05. THERE WERE NO LIGHTS THAT COME ON PRIOR TO STALLING. THE RPMS DROPPED DRAMATICALLY BEFORE THIS HAPPENED. THIS DID HAPPEN ONLY WHEN SHE TOOK FOOT OFF OF THE ACCELERATOR. SHE DID NOT QUALIFY FOR THE LEMON LAW BECAUSE OF THE MILEAGE ON THE CAR, 25,500 MILES. THE MILES THE FIRST TIME THIS HAPPENED THE MILEAGE WAS 23,800. SHE SPOKE TO THE MANUFACTURER , AND SAID THEY WERE NOT SYMPATHETIC. *AK

ProblemT*: THE CONTACT STATED INTERMITTENTLY THE VEHICLE STALLS WHILE RELEASING THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL AT 20-4 0MPH. NO WARNING LIGHTS HAVE ILLUMINATED. AFTER STALLING THE VEHICLE WILL RESTART, SURGE AND STALL AGAIN. THE VEHICLE HAS BEEN TAKEN TO THE DEALERSHIP FOUR TIMES. THE LAST VISIT TO THE DEALERSHIP THE ELEMENT, FILTER, COMPLETE MODULE ENGINE, THE KEY WAS REPROGRAMMED AND THE COOL RETURN WAS REPLACED. THE NEXT TIME THE VEHICLE WAS DRIVEN AFTER THE REPAIRS WERE PERFORMED THE VEHICLE STALLED WHILE CROSSING A RAIL ROAD TRACK. THE VEHICLE HAS STALLED A TOTAL OF FIVE TIMES. IT WAS TOWED TO THE DEALERSHIP FOUR OF THE FIVE TIMES. THE MANUFACTURER HAS BEEN ALERTED. THE FUEL PUMP WAS REPLACED. UPDATED 05/02/06. *JB

 

[gijoecam]

I ran the VIN through OASIS for you... there were no broadcast messages, SSM's, or TSBs that seemed to cover the symptoms. The only thing that's been done to the vehicle is recall repairs and it looks like they replaced the EVAP components that cause the P-0442 check engine light. Aside from that, it's spent remarkably little time at the dealership.

As far as I can figure, the dealer needs to hook up a logger and take it for a ride until it happens. It's not going to be a quick and simple fix, but it's a definite problem, and easily reproduceable. If the dealer doesn't fix it (assuming it's a Ford dealer) it may be time to call the customer service hotline.

Like I mentioned before, you're not alone. I'm surprised it hasn't been pinpointed and a TSB or SSm released for it yet.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

 

[rcplanebuilder]

The latest.

The dealer has had the vehicle since Friday. We went round and round this AM over the fact that their electrical wizard claimed that he made it fail during a road test and that it was the alternator that was failing... and they also wanted to charge me $900 bucks for it.

I balked at the idea because the system should run fine on the battery. The difference between 13.8V and 14.3 (whatever) shouldn't cause an isolated engine stalling problem. He begged to differ.

Since the vehicle is totally electronic, and a system wide low current or voltage could theoretically be affected by controlling everything all at once, I decided to yeild to him, but I told them that I didn't think it was going to fix a thing, and I was not real happy even at the negotiated $200 for a part that I didn't think would work, especially since it was under full warranty when I bought it, and has only gone over the warranty driving it back and forth to the dealer.

He said it ran "flawless", and even had "more power", "Come pick it up".

So I picked it up tonight, and it did seem that all the electronics worked a little smoother. Better throttle tip in, crisper shifts, smoother idle. But then again, I've been driving a rental Tarus for 4 days now too.

The end result, It stalled EVERY time across the bridge tonight. No change. Hi-beams, lo-beams, and no-beams, stall, stall, stall. ...Alternator my arse.

And to think I offered to drive it with NGS, WDS, OBD II or whatever they wanted hooked up, and they didn't want me to. Time to call the hotline.

 

[budwich]

go back and get your money back along with your old alternator... your vehicle should and will run perfectly fine without an alternator assuming your battery has some voltage. what some `guys` will do to BS a customer... and still not follow an easy route to solving the problem with an odb data logger...sheesh

my favorite saying... they have DONE nothing!!!!!!

 

[bluesman2333]

After you threaten to sue them and get your money back, it's time to do some of your own troubleshooting. My fuel pressure tester has an adapter to go from Shrader to 1/4" flare. I f you buy one of these too, you can extend the tube so it goes inside your cab. This way you can see if the fuel pressure goes down to zero or fluctuates any time on the trip. You can also do the same with a meter to check various circuits. BTW, seat of the pants tests are meaningless. As you found out, the power of suggestion makes you buy into things that can't be proven with empirical testing.

I just looked at your video. The RPMs die off gradually before the engine dies. This tells me you are losing fuel pressure and it might well be the inertia switch as has been mentioned above. You can jump that out easily enough to see.

 

[budwich]

I just noticed your "No change. Hi-beams, lo-beams, and no-beams, stall, stall, stall"... the no beams part is of interest. You are saying your headlights shut down when your vehicle dies....even though the key is still in the "on" position..... is this correct???? Doesn't sound right. Do you have autolamps??? Starting to sound like your anti-theft module is "firing", shutting down stuff but then changes its "mind".

edit:... just re-read what you said... what i should have read was that it didn't matter whether your lights were on or off, "stall" was the end result. sorry for the misleading post... forget it

 

[rcplanebuilder]

Solution found

Well, after a few battles, the problem is solved.

The way I saw it, something was reading differently, or instructions were being issued differently when CC was engaged. This left me with a few possibilities.

The CC taking data for Peripheral, Derivitive, and Integral calculations, and where they were taking data from, didn't seem to add up to a problem with it's basic function or failure.

The only 2 things that really made sense to me was that either the CC was telling the transmisison to stay locked in OD, and the converter to stay locked, however, traveling downhill was when it would shut off. It was also found that any overspeed condition between the speeds of 30 and 45 would always cause it to shut off. In an overspeed condition, gravity is pulling the engine along, and it should not cause it to shut off, no matter what gear, unless it was actually upshifting or locking the converter to further slow the engine down.

The other thing that occured to me was the possiblity that the "Null Point" on the throttle body could theoretically have 2 different null points on a mechanical CC system. OR... in an electronic system, there could be 2 different TPS sensors with 2 different null points, OR the circuitry could be reading the same TPS differently. Without having access to Ford schematics to verify, this is what I suspected as the most likely cause.

After AGAIN offering to drive the vehicle while hooked up to a computer to collect data, they again DENIED it. I made the tech go for a ride, and made it shut down several times (which he was surprized, because CONTRARY to what they told me, they had NOT read what I gave them on when it shuts down, and had NOT been able to duplicate the problem in the past 4 visits!). I gave them video, I gave them accurate written data on exactly how to make it shut off, and even offered the correct solution as a possibility! How does an average guy who is not trained in aircraft maintenance (myself)survive trips to the dealer?

I told him that I would go straight to the schematics for the CC circuitry, and see where it's data input, output, and follow-up mechanisms were, as one of them must be corrupt. Get this; He said, "It doesn't work that way, we don't have access to any of that, Ford want's to keep us stupid." My reply that "It seems they are doing a pretty good job of it." was not well received. I also overheard the argument that "He" didn't want to have to work on it.

They started throwing parts at it, and the throttle body and TPS assembly was the item that fixed it. It is truly fixed now. It appears that either there are 2 different TPS sensors, or the 2 circuits were reading the throttle position differently. Either way that makes sense as the throttle body is told to close to the null point A when normal driving, and the throttle body is told to close to null point B when in CC. Point B is WAY too far closed, or it is "Reading" that it is farther closed, and shuts the fuel down to match it's perceived position, and in this case, the engine shuts off due to lack of fuel or air, or both. When going downhill and the CC tells it to close throttle fully it does, where it closes it to, and where it thinks it is closed to, is the source of the problem. Now you have an answer for future similar write ups

It was thier last chance too. If it had stalled one time, I would have driven home in a different vehicle.

Thanks for all your input and help guys! It is very frustrating knowing what I want to look for, but not having access to the manuals.

Also, after walking in with MN state law in my hands stating that my vehicle was covered, not for 30, but for 60 days 2,500 miles MINIMUM, and that alternators were covered in the language, I got all my money back, and a lot of them playing dumb... Sheisters and liars.

Thanks again guys! Great forum!

 

[gijoecam]

Woo hoo!! Congrats! Chalk one up for the home team!

I have a couple ideas too, similar to yours, but I'll have to elaborate a little later when I get more time.

Unfortunately, without any hard data to prove it, I guess we'll never truly know what the problem was.

Oh, and I'm not buying the 'we don't have access to any of that, Ford want's to keep us stupid.' line.... If the general public has access to the information, it's simply a matter of learning how the system works and following the service procedure and troubleshooting flow charts in the service manuals. Any mechanic worth his salt should be able to follow the troubleshooting instructions.

-Joe