2002 XLT 4.6L 4WD brake line stuff

[LMHmedchem]

Hello,

It appears that I am going to have to do at least some brake line work. There are kits available from sites like,

In Line Tube

but I don't know if that is the way to go or not. These don't seem to include the short lines from the ABS.

Assuming that I am going to buy tubing, bend and flare it, and add my own fittings,

- what size tubing do I need?
- do I go with something like AGS Poly-Armour PVF, or Nickel Copper (I wouldn't use plain steel living around here)
- how many feet of tubing would I need to do everything?
- what size/type of fittings do I need (compatible with the existing master cylinder, ABS, flex hoses, etc)?
- what is a good flare tool (this is dependent on the type of fittings, correct?)?
- do I need a straightener?

I have a cheap tube bender but could get something better.

The first lines I would tackle are the short lines from the ABS to the first junction (one of them is leaking). There seems to be a section of those lines that have a braided covering. Are those flexible lines or just a covering on steel lines?

Thanks again for all the help.

LMHmedchem

 

[J_C]

Heh... the kits. Line pre-bent like the factory used, works great when you have a stripped down vehicle with nothing in the way, but to put on a vehicle not taken apart, could be a real PITA (and have to un-bend them some anyway!) far more work than making your own lines and bending as you go, by hand. Plus the linked kit is stainless which is much harder to bend and flare - though in theory if the kit is right, you wouldn't need to flare. If it were a complete frame-off restoration, I would use a stainless kit but not otherwise.

It is 3/16" tubing. AGS Poly-Armour will work, though (and I don't know how many years you expect to keep the vehicle on the road), any chips in the plastic coating will eventually rust. Nickel Copper will last longer, but the cheapest generics on Amazon/ebay/etc may have the thinnest permissible tubing wall thickness, yet it will be very easy to bend by hand. The Poly-Armour isn't TOO bad to bend by hand either.

I'd start with a 25ft coil of tubing but I honestly don't know on an '02. I reused the fittings from the ABS and then the others are 3/8" for 3/16" line. You mentioned poly armour so at Autozone they are AGS BLF-12C-5 part #, though some Nickel Copper line kits (amazon, etc) come with a few fittng nuts.

The loaner flare tools at auto parts stores, butterfly knife style, are junk and I couldn't repeatably make good flares with them. Instead I bought an Eastwood 31244, but this is apparently made by a 3rd party and sold under a few different brands. It was only $35 when I bought it not that many years ago so at current $60 price, expensive for what it is, so I'd look for the other brands selling it today. Downside is it can only do the double flare 3/16" (aka 4.75mm size) but that is the only size you need. It is very handy to be able to pull the line with one end already flared, then cut to length and flare the other end with it.

You don't really need a straightener, can just straighten as you uncoil it on a smooth, hard (concrete garage etc) surface. Unroll it while holding the end against the floor and the coil perpendicular to the floor, unwinding from the bottom of the coil. Minor un-straight areas can simply be bent close enough by hand.

The braided covering is a flex section. The DIY replacement is put a few loops of tubing there so there is slack for it to give a little. Make 3-4 ~2" or larger loops around something round and strong, like a floor jack handle or axe handle, etc. Google images will give examples what they look like, be sure to account for this extra length of tubing (may be between 1-2 feet more depending on # and size of loops) when measuring and pulling it.

brake line loops - Google Search

I'm sure I left something out. I don't know about 3rd gen but 2nd gen explorers had an unused clip mounts on the frame for the front to rear line run, so when installing new line, you could leave the old line installed and just cut the ends off to get them out of the way, and use the formerly empty clip position for the new line. A handful of wire ties to go here and there is handy too.

If you have much rust, a high quality flare nut wrench is highly recommended, though if you find you have to get the nuts very tight to stop them from leaking, it is a sign that the flare is poor and would be better to re-do that flare, so it is always nice to leave a couple extra inches of line when you cut to length, in case you have to do that.

Here are a few examples of same or similar flaring tools to the (now) excessively expensive Eastwood I have:
Read the reviews, some purchasers claim nickel copper tubing is too soft, but I suspect they just tightened it too much. YMMV.
Amazon product ASIN B0859QMSNXAmazon product ASIN B06XPRVCPVAmazon product ASIN B07GB4WQ83

Eastwood On Car Brake Line Flaring Tool for 3/16 Tubing

Eastwood On Car Flaring Tool for 3/16 Tubing

www.eastwood.com

Eric the Car Guy turned me onto the Eastwood with a video he did:


Lastly, an example of the crappy type loaner tool that my local auto parts stores had and was much harder to get good results with, so I just stopped trying and got the Eastwood. Do make a few practice flares before doing what is going on the vehicle:
Amazon product ASIN B000L7QZ0Q

 

[LMHmedchem]

Thanks you very much for the informative post. At the moment, I am looking at the following for a parts list,

Titan 51535 3/16-Inch Double Flaring Tool ($48.58)
10 pack 4LIFETIMELINES Steel Tube Nut, Long, 3/16 (3/8-24 Inverted) ($8.99)
3/16" S.U.R.&R. BREZ100 UltraBEND Brake Line ($31.54 +ship)
2x AllStar ALL46302-6 6in #3 Line -3 Straight/-3 90 Degree ($16.29 +ship)
2x AllStar ALL46300-6 6in #3 Line -3 Straight/-3 Straight ($11.49 +ship)

This comes to $145 plus some shipping, including the tool.

Are the above the correct tube nuts? I seem to think that brake lines use the longer fittings. Is this true or can I used the shorter version? Nuts are available in plain steel, brass, zinc coated steel, nickel coated steel, and stainless steel. Is there some material that is preferable or to be avoided? I would not use plain steel around here so the ones I listed are nickel coated steel.

I would like to at least look at prices for high quality parts. I believe that the UltraBend brake line listed above is high quality but having not done this before I have no real way to tell. Are the 4LIFETIMELINES fittings of good quality? If not, is there a better brand?

I listed some flex lines above but I am still not sure if I will go that route or not. I may use flex lines or I may try to replace the flex section with loops as was suggested. At $12 each I might just go with the flex lines unless someone tells me that they are not good quality. One leak that I know I have is either at the lower junction with the flex line or in the 90 in the steel line right below the junction. I might be able to replace the flex line with one that has a 90 on the lower end and then cut and flare the steel line past the leak. That might fix the current leak quickly. I think that the -3/-3 size on the flex lines above is correct for a 3/8-24 inverted tube nut with 3/16" line but I don't know.

I assume that if part of the lines have rusted out, the rest will not be far behind, so I plan on replacing all of it.

I will probably want some unions since I will likely not try to replace the longer lines in one piece. I guess I need to know what the correct tube nuts are and a good brand name before selecting unions.

LMHmedchem

 

[J_C]

I used standard, not long nuts... pretty sure that the factory nuts on my '98 were not long, but then it was a '98 not an '02. Not sure if long will work, short had plenty of purchase in the threads. I just bought the AGS zinc chromate plated ones that Autozone had, BLF-12C-5. Plus when AGS sells it as a kit (plus some others I saw on Amazon), zinc chromate plated nuts is what they include with the nickel copper line, example:

AGS Company Automotive Solutions

AGS Company Automotive Solutions

agscompany.com

I'm not a metallurgist so can't give the best advice about dissimilar metals' corrosion, as a way to determine which nuts would work best and your linked line doesn't really state it's nickel copper, though it looks like it is IF my monitor red calibration isn't making it look reddish when really stainless.

Stainless threads can gall, and brass isn't that much harder than CuNi so I would prefer the nickel plated steel to help mash the flare up against the mating surface to seal (if necessary) except I just spent a moment and am having a hard time finding such a nut anywhere else (nickel plated steel brake hose nuts). If the picture of the ones you linked is accurate, they look more like zinc plated and the seller is only stating nickel as a "color" description. I could be wrong, but nickel plated steel fasteners usually have closer to a mirror finish. Maybe not on the low cost ones but that low a cost for nickel plated, also makes me have doubt. I looked on 4Lifetime's site and didn't see any mention of nickel plating, nor for any of their other model #s:

3/16

Need durable and high-quality long steel tube nuts? Look no further than our 3/16" (3/8-24 Inverted) options for a perfect fit every time.

4lifetimelines.com

I didn't use flex lines so can't advise on that.

I doubt you're really going to need unions. Nickel copper line is pretty easy to work with. If what you linked is stainless and you intend to use stainless, maybe then you will want to use a tubing bender and unions to piece it together, but their site description of easy bending is a 2nd reason I think nickel copper and it will be easy to make full runs without unions... maybe buy the line first, then see for yourself how easy nickel copper line is to bend by hand, so then being able to pull through the vehicle routing, shaping it as you go. That is unless you are picky about trying to reproduce factory bend angles/radius, to make it look more professional. Functionally it will make no difference, to have hand bent angles as you run the line, as long as you don't try to bend a very tight radius by hand and end up collapsing the tubing.

 

[LMHmedchem]

The S.U.R.&R. BREZ100 UltraBEND is Nickel Copper, at least it is listed in the NIckel Copper section at RockAuto.

This is the RockAuto link,

S.U.R.&R. BREZ100 UltraBEND

this is a better picture than at nationaltoolwarehouse.com where the price was lower. The S.U.R.&R. is about $0.30 more expensive per foot than the AGS NiCu product and about 4 times the cost of PolyArmor. It's still only about $40 shipped for 25'. I would be interested to know if anyone has used both AGS NiCu and S.U.R.&R UltraBEND and can tell if there is a difference. I don't mind paying a bit more for a better product, but I do mind paying more for no reason. I can't seem to find the UltraBEND in a nice kit like the one you posted.

The only Nickel plated nuts I can find are Earl's Performance 9806624ERL. These run more than $6 each, so I probably won't go that route.

Also, as far as the galvanic potential between metals, nickel also doesn't make all that much sense. Zinc is also actually pretty bad with most metals. Aluminum and steel (and other zinc plated fittings course) are the only metals that have acceptable potential against zinc in a moisture environment. I guess that is why zinc is used to plate steel. The potential of zinc against copper and nickel is as bad as it gets, except for silver. The metal with lowest potential against copper and nickel is brass (for metals that would be used to make or plate fittings). I guess that is one reason why copper lines often have brass fittings. In the end, the part of the interface between the copper line and the metal nut that is exposed to moisture in the air is very small. The bigger issue would be the interface between the threads of the male and female fittings. As long as the material of the fitting that the male nut is threading into is steel, then zinc is the best choice other than aluminum. Zinc-aluminum plating is generally considered the best plating material for corrosion resistance on steel. Zinc is actually better than nickel in this regard, so if you wanted to use nickel plated steel nuts, the female fitting should be nickel plated as well (or be stainless steel). Looking at all of that, I think it makes sense to use zinc plated steel fittings and ignore the small interface between the copper line and zinc fitting.

So, for the moment, I will go with the small size zinc coated steel fittings.

10x 4LIFETIMELINES 3/16 Steel Tube Nut 3/8-24 Male Inverted ($6.99)

Brass would work as well but I agree that it is overly soft and actually has a slightly worse potential against the steel in the brake hose fittings.

LMHmedchem

 

[LMHmedchem]

Another question if you don't mind. Do you know what are the fittings in the kit you posted (AGS CNC-325K) are made of? It doesn't say in the listing and they are "brass" colored. They could be gold colored zinc plating, but again, it doesn't say.

This listing,

AGS BLF-12C-5 Tube Fitting

says that these fittings are steel with a zinc dichromate finish. They look like the same fittings as are pictured in the kit, but there are no part numbers given so I can't say for sure that the nuts in the kit are BFL-12. Even on the AGS website there is no parts list for the kit, just the dimensions for the included fittings.

Why do manufacturers post a product on their own website and not say what the product actually is?

Is it correct that 3/8-24 is the correct threading to thread into the OE brake hoses?

LMHmedchem

 

[J_C]

Pretty sure AGS golden colored are steel, with zinc chromate (aka zinc dichromate) plating, same as sold separately in the BLF-12C-5 listing. Their black ones are steel with black oxide finish.

Yes 3/8-24 is the size to fit the OE brake hose, though if you have never replaced the OE hoses, now might be a good time to consider it, as they aren't expensive at Rock Auto (might be cheaper at Amazon once S/H is factored in). I don't recall the size for the ABS module, I just reused those nuts as they weren't corroded.

 

[LMHmedchem]

Pretty sure AGS golden colored are steel, with zinc chromate (aka zinc dichromate) plating, same as sold separately in the BLF-12C-5 listing. Their black ones are steel with black oxide finish.

I sent an email to AGS customer service asking about the fittings in kit CNC-325K. Hopefully they will respond quickly. If not, I will likely just chance it. That kit is only $30 shipped from RockAuto for both the tubing and 10 tube nuts. It would be closer to $50 for the S.U.R.&R. UltraBEND and separate fittings. If you think that this is good tubing that will be relatively easy enough to work with I will probably just go with that.

Yes 3/8-24 is the size to fit the OE brake hose, though if you have never replaced the OE hoses, now might be a good time to consider it, as they aren't expensive at Rock Auto (might be cheaper at Amazon once S/H is factored in).

I have already been through a bit of an odyssey with the brake hoses. See this thread,

new replacement brake hose doesn't fit (needs to be bent into shape???)

In short, I bought new hoses for the front and they were not manufactured correctly. They didn't even come close to fitting (which reminds me, I have to update that thread). The only hoses that look like the correct shape are the Centric brand and they go about $18 plus shipping. Since the new hoses didn't fit, I spent quite a bit of time (and a handful or crush washers) to grind off rust and clean the ridges on the old hoses blocks to get them to seal on the new calipers. I have finally managed to get the to stop dripping so I am no overly anxious to wade back into replacing them. It was when I was charging and bleeding the system after those repairs that I noticed the leak in the steel line.

I don't recall the size for the ABS module, I just reused those nuts as they weren't corroded.

I believe that the fittings into the ABS are metric. I will check once I have one off but I will likely reuse them as you did. They look like they are in good shape. Hopefully I don't mess them up overly much when removing them. Don't you think it's a bit odd that the brake parts are SAE when everything else on the truck it metric? All of my line wrenches are metric so I guess I will need to get a 3/8 line wrench. I basically used a type of pipe wrench to get the old fittings out of the brake hoses. Is there a line wrench that you recommend? I remember a post about some really good wrenches for this but, of course, I can't find it now. It might have been Wave Drive Pro but I am not sure.

I will probably start ordering some things tomorrow, though it is in the teens here now and no fun to work outside. This house pre-dates the automobile by several decades and so never had a garage. Apparently the owners were not wealthy enough to own a horse. Some of my neighbors have carriage houses which would be pretty nice. No such luck here.

LMHmedchem

 

[J_C]

At the time I did mine, I found a deal on a Wright Tools wrench, this one was on sale $12:

Amazon product ASIN B00A1BNYJC
Some people think they are similar quality to Snap On but I don't have Snap On to compare and if I had an urge to buy an SAE set instead of only one, I'd more likely get a median-grade priced Sunex set at $45. I do think Wright > Sunex but don't find myself using flare wrenches a lot, so just needed one, good, wrench.

Amazon product ASIN B000XW4CCM
Heh, the Amazon picture of the Wright is terrible, looks like this, black oxide though, so must be kept oiled to not rust but really beefy heads for its sleek profile.

 

[LMHmedchem]

These are the wrenches I was thinking about,

Metrinch Combination wrench 11 mm and 7/16" ($10.61)

The have a similar design to the snap on product. I have only found then mentioned in a few places but all the mentions were outstanding.

Has anyone here used any of these?

LMHmedchem

 

[J_C]

I have not used any Metrinch products, and can't recall any mention in tool/related forums. Also confused, it isn't a flare nut wrench linked, nor the right 3/8" size . Edit: Sorry, brain fart moment, the threading is 3/8" but the wrench size on the hex end is 7/16"

I had no problem getting the ABS module nuts off with a regular open end wrench.

 

[LMHmedchem]

I have not used any Metrinch products, and can't recall any mention in tool/related forums. Also confused, it isn't a flare nut wrench linked, nor the right 3/8" size. I had no problem getting the ABS module nuts off with a regular open end wrench.

I came across Metrinch while searching for a box wrench type tool for rounded off bolt heads. I presumed that there was an analog of the bolt extractor socket in the form of a box wrench. Both the snap-on flank style and the Meternich style are designed to center the torque on the flats of the nut/bolt head so as to minimize the chance of round off. The Meternich has a little play before it tightens and, like a bolt extractor socket, can work on a small range of sizes. That is why the one I linked to is listed as 11mm or 7/16", which are not quite the same. A good line wrench avoids round off by securely fitting over a large percentage of the entire nut/bolt head, at least it does if it is well made and properly sized. Any of the above will probably work in allot of situations, and all seem to have cases where they don't work at all.

The wrench I posted was just one link I found. I am sure that they have the correct size, I just didn't look too hard for it. You can get 3/8-24 nuts for 3/16 line that take a 7/16 wrench. I am pretty sure that is what is on my 2002 brake lines because a 10mm line wrench is too small. If the nut was 3/8, a 10mm would be too big. I was assuming at that point that the fitting was metric and I didn't have an 11mm line wrench. I tried an 11mm box wrench with predictable results. I ended up having to use a Husky Basin Wrench, which worked very well if anyone is looking for a wrench for a completely rounded off fitting. It will tighten up as well as loosen and is about as fast as a line wrench. It's designed for working in hard to access plumbing spaces and that can be a bonus as well.

LMHmedchem

 

[J_C]

I just found a post that stated they are 7/16", and edited the error in my prior post.

Are brake hose fittings metric or SAE?

I need to order line wrenches for changing all brake hoses at all 4 corners on 2003 Explorer XLT 4.6 4x4 and the truck is not here right now for me to be able to go see for myself. Won’t be here until two weeks when son comes home from school for me to change. Are the original nuts and...

www.explorerforum.com

 

[LMHmedchem]

Looking today at the setup starting from the ABS, there are 5 lines coming out of the ABS. Three of the lines terminate quickly in male fittings that are mounted in a bracket. Attached to that are three female fittings that go into a 90 and down into the short flex lines which are held in another bracket. The flex lines terminate in three more female fittings. I am not sure what the point of this section is. There are 9-10 inches there with what looks like pre-fabricated lines. Part of these are flex lines and part are steel lines, each with female fittings on the ends. The steel line looks pressed into the flex line without a fitting there. It seems like an overly complicated way to run 10 inches of line in a pretty straight and unobstructed path. Is there some reason why a short (4") section of flex hose is necessary in that spot?

I think that it makes sense to replace these pre-fabricated hybrid steel/flex sections with 10 inch flex lines with a 90 on the top end. Something like this,

AllStar ALL46302-10 10in #3 Line -3 Straight/-3 90 Degree ($17.49)

could attach with the 90 at the top where the steel 90 currently is and then have a male fitting installed in the bottom like the current setup. Does this make sense? Otherwise, it will be allot of work and additional fittings to try and replicate what is there now.

Also, where do the other two lines go (the ones that go under the battery)? I was a bit surprised to see 5 lines instead of 4. I guess I haven't looked that carefully before. I can post pictures if I am not making sense.

LMHmedchem

 

[J_C]

You lost me, yes pictures might help (or might not, hard for me to tell things with pics vs in-person looking at things). It could be that the way they set it up was just to make assembly line installation easier.

I would assume any flex section is because it (play in the line) needs to be *somewhere* for that line run, and that's the spot they choose.

Best guess about the 5 lines is, two (front/rear) from master cylinder, then 3 more, with one going to both rear wheels and the other two going to each front wheel.

It's up to you to use the flex line or make coils, and how much to replicate the factory setup. I would only put in as many different pieces and junctions as needed to get the job done, which when I did my '98, was just a single piece of line, with 3 coils right after the ABS module, all the way to the respective wheel's hose. I started runs at the wheels, seemed easier to me, to make a flare there beforehand, then work it up to the engine bay, and be standing up with good light to make coils and cut to length and finally flare the other end.

You might look at what you're going to do to route it, for example if you have to pull a tank guard plate or crossmember, etc, how much work it is going to be. Point is, line under the vehicle and at rear axle will degrade faster so in theory needs more frequent replacement, and yet, with the age of the vehicle, especially with nickel copper line, you may never have to do it again so could be more about ease for a dealership shop to replace segements with the Ford factory bent part #.

I didn't spend near as much time thinking about the process as you have, yet it still turned out fine, biggest issue was I'd started with a crappy auto parts store flare tool then decided I wanted better flares so got the eastwood.

 

[Mbrooks420]

Flaring can be tough. I always put together a kit so I don’t have to do any, and if I do it’s just a single. If you use a pipe cutter flaring is less successful, at least in my experience. I always use a skinny cut off wheel.

 

[LMHmedchem]

Flaring can be tough. I always put together a kit so I don’t have to do any, and if I do it’s just a single. If you use a pipe cutter flaring is less successful, at least in my experience. I always use a skinny cut off wheel.

I also like the cutoff wheel unless the tubing is very heavy. I use a Dremel for allot of things like this, though I would probably lightly score the surface with a small pipe cutter to have a perfectly round mark to aim at. I assume that it is important for the cut end of the tubing to be very square and completely free of burs, etc?

Part of my issue is that some of the leaks are in a section of the brake line that does not seem to be included in the kits I have looked at. This means I will have to do at least some fabrication, even if I buy a kit. I figured I would start with that and see how it goes. The sections I will be working on first are small, so I will remove one of them and bring it into the shop and see if I can replicate it there. If it looks good, I will install it and move to the next one. If I can't do it, I will wind up at a brake shop anyway, at least for those sections.

There are 14" of snow on the ground at the moment and it is dropping down into the single digits, so I will have a little while at least to try some fabrication. I will post some pictures of the parts I am working on a bit later. I will be doing snow removal for most of the rest of the afternoon.

LMHmedchem

 

[J_C]

IIRC, I used a pipe cutter tool, smallest I had but was still somewhat large for this size tubing, then trued up the ends with a file, holding the tube downwards to minimize metal filings that went inside, then it still needed a slight deburring, then blew compressed air through it from the other end. Seems like a lot but only took a couple minutes each, besides the first one that I went slow on.

 

[LMHmedchem]

There was a break in the weather today so I had a bit of time to work on this. This is the section I am working now. I have to replace the lines from the ABS to the junction where the steel lines run to the wheels.

The 3 steel lines that come out of the ABS to the front and rear brake hoses connect to some short pre-fabricated hybrid sections of hose that are part steel line and part flex hose. The lines out of the ABS end in male fittings that are secured in a manifold type bracket. The hybrid sections then start with female swivel fittings that connect to the the male fittings in the manifold. There is a short section of steel line that is press fit into some flex hose with a crimp. The flex hose section is short (~4") and terminates in female fittings where the steel brake line starts again and goes to the wheels. That part can't be seen in this picture.

I was able to get the female fittings off of the steel lines from the ABS without too much effort, but I did have to remove the battery and battery tray to get enough room for a wrench to turn. I am completely unable to get the fittings out of the ABS. I can get a 13mm line wrench on some of the fittings, but there is no room at all to move the wrench. I was able to get one of the fittings started with a basin wrench but I was only able to turn it a few times. It seems like the only thing I can do is to cut all of the steel lines coming out of the ABS. If I cut them about an inch from the fitting I may have room to get them off. Yet another example of a design that just was not meant to be serviced.

I may be able to get a claw foot flare nut wrench on these fittings. I will try that the next time I have a decent day to work.

Are there any suggestions about how to remove the fittings from the ABS?

LMHmedchem

 

[LMHmedchem]

It was nice out today so I cut the three lines that go from the ABS to the wheels. I didn't see any value in continuing to strugle with a wrench to loosen them when there just isn't any room. I used a small reciprocating saw and cut each line about 1" above the fitting. A grinder may have been easier but there isn't allot of room and I didn't want to risk damaging anything in the area. After cutting, I was able to use a deep well 13mm socket to easily remove the fittings. Just a note, before starting I carefully labeled each line in several places with numbered pieces of tape. I also photographed the setup and added the same numbers to the photograph. I should be able to proceed with fabricating new lines now.

Strangely, the fittings on the ABS outbound lines that I removed are not all the same size. The fitting that is closest to the front of the truck is somewhat smaller than the other 2. The wrench part of the hex nut is the same size (13mm), but the threaded part of the fitting is smaller. It looks like this is the line that runs to the passengers front wheel but I haven't traced it all yet. I really can't see any reason why the ABS ports would have different size fittings, especially if one of them goes to one of the front wheels. If the smaller fitting is on the line that goes to the rear I guess it makes more sense, sort of.

LMHmedchem