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93 A/C Upgrade: Am I Being Screwed?

mikeinri

Explorer Addict
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Year, Model & Trim Level
04 Explorer, 94 XLT (RIP)
Hi guys,

I did a search and I'm getting conflicting answers. Time is of the essence on this one (I'm already at the shop).

I have a 1993 truck with R12 A/C. The system has needed a recharge every year for the past 4 years that I've owned it.

Just took it to a shop that I've used before for other things, and they're telling me that it HAS to be upgraded, and will cost $450 for the orifice tube, a filter, and some new fittings (plus the labor and R134).

I asked him about the o-rings, and he said that "Starting in 1992, the manufacturers planned ahead for R134 and the o-rings are compatible." Does this make any sense?

I previously had a neighbor who was a mechanic, and he said to ALWAYS replace all the o-rings if doing a R12 to R134 conversion.

For now, I told the shop to change the fittings and do a leak test (don't ask me why that wasn't their suggestion).

Does $450 sound like too much for this job? Should I insist on the o-rings?

BTW, this is actually on my RV, which is an E350-front Class C (has a van front with the cab-over bunk). I'm sure the A/C components are the same or extremely similar to my Explorer.

Mike
 



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IMHO......IF the system is still under R-12 pressure (and/or was not functioning)….you’ll be ahead of the game.…if you take it to a pro. Find out, if it only needs to be topped off or, if there is a leak or, if the compressor is up to the job. A pro, can test the compressor and usually has the tools to test for leaks, using a dye or with an elec. sniffer. IF you decide to proceed w/ a DIY CONVERSION job, you’ll now KNOW what part(s) will be needed and the system will still need to be evacuated anyway. The machine to recover R-12 is expensive and it is against the law to vent R-12 into the atmosphere. So, let the pro do that part.

Once void of refrigerant......you could DIY the parts replacement part.

IF you know that a part is bad……now (during the conversion), will be the time to replace it. IF the compressor has failed, you‘ll need a new one and YOU’LL NEED TO FLUSH.*

The usual conversion, will require the removal of the accumulator, orifice tube, and old compressor (w/clutch). Drain the oil from the old compressor and note the amount. Drain the oil from the old accumulator and note the amount. Dump the old accumulator and orifice tube, buy new ones.

Talk to the parts counter guy about your conversion......make sure that the desiccant in the accumulator is for R-134a. And, ask IF you'll need to replace the low pressure switch and/or change colors on your new orifice tube (to be compatible with the switch to R-134a). They may have it listed.

DO NOT expose the new accumulator to air.........keep the shipping caps on. Even when it's installed and hooked up to the lines.......the accumulator will draw moisture out of what little air is in the lines. For that reason, do the re-charge immediately........or at least that day.

The old compressor can be re-used if serviceable. Do not flush a compressor.
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Hummm……To FLUSH or NOT, you decide.

One of the reasons for a flush of the remaining components.....is that, as much as possible, you want to clear the “crud” and old oil out of the system. I wouldn't want to mix mineral oil used in an R-12 system with the oil needed for an R-134a system. But, that's just me.

So…..the evaporator and condenser can be flushed in place (or removed and flushed)......be careful. You could also flush the lines.......but, flushing a line w/a muffler is not recommended. So, you could buy a replacement hose w/ a new muffler or skip that line/part.
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As long as MOST (say more than half) of the old mineral oil is removed and IF there was NO compressor failure…..according to the Haynes book: "Unless the vehicle manufacturer - or the aftermarket kit instruction sheet specifically recommends flushing the system during the retrofit procedure, you can assume that flushing is not necessary (Readers who obtain the SAE's J1661 document will note that it recommends flushing before retrofit. However, you can disregard this information because the SAE no longer believes that flushing is critical to a successful retrofit.)"
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Anyway.....replace all the old "O" rings with new green "O" rings. Use Nylog as a lube (ask the parts guy for the correct one).

As for AC oil….use the correct compatible type and weight, keeping in mind the particular manufacturer of the AC system and refrigerant type. Oil is added into the individual parts as they are installed. How much oil? The answer varies. A good book on the subject will help.

Install all of the parts and connect up all of the lines and hoses. Once everything is back into its place..........you'll need to add on the new R-134a adaptors and label the system w/ a R-134a conversion sticker (so, the next guy will know).

Then proceed with your re-charge procedure.

Full Re-charge:

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=158183

Note: System pressures and capacities will vary between mfns and applications (again, a good book will help).

Ford Conversion Notes:

My '94 Explorer (w/ factory R-134a) used a blue orifice tube. I’ve heard that previous years (R-12 systems), used a red orifice tube. Normally......I figure, IF the factory system worked well w/ whatever colored tube......then, I should replace the tube w/ a like colored tube. Thinking - that the orifice color, indicates a certain sized hole. But, in this case (R-12 to R-134a conversion) a switch from red to blue orifice tube might be the correct choice.

Also, check that the low pressure switch is the correct one for your application. NAPA lists different part numbers for an R-12 vs. R-134a system (remember to also check the elec. connectors).

Shamaal said:
The switch on the accumulator controls the clutch on the compressor. When the system pressure is less than 24.5 psi the clutch is disengaged. When the pressure is greater than 43.5 psi the compressor clutch engages.

And, as a COMPARISON ONLY.......the Haynes book says ('94 Ford Explorer w/factory R-134a system)........at ambient air temp of 80 degrees F, hi velocity fan in front of the condenser, 1500 RPM.........22-50 low side and 160-250 high side pressure. Capacities: oil 7 oz and R-134a 2.25 lbs (36 oz).**Conversion capacities will differ, for a R-134a conversion, I've heard figures anywhere from 60-90% of the R-12 charge was good. **
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Aloha, Mark

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and....

Remember I'm NOT a pro.......so, assume: There are NO LEAKS, the AC compressor & clutch, radiator fan & clutch, are up to the job and the system has been evacuated........

When you're re-charging the system......to start, charge it (into the vacuum) with whatever it'll take w/ engine “off.”

Then, set up a high velocity shop fan in front of the condenser and let her rip (highest speed). Turn on the engine, running at 1500 RPM, set the AC (max), *blower fan speed set at highest speed, doors closed and windows up, 10 mins. running to stabilize the system. *I have noticed that a lower blower fan speed, will get you lower temps. And, the HAYNES book says, blower fan speed at lowest speed, for the "Final Performance Test."

Continue to fill the system (w/ R-134a) to 60% of the R-12 charge. Sometimes, to help get the 60% in there, you might need to use a jumper at the low pressure switch connector, to get the compressor working. Once you get the 60% in the system, remove the jumper, reconnect the low pressure switch and observe that the clutch is working. IF the clutch doesn't energize, you may need to add a little more refrigerant (or the low pressure switch may be broken). IF you see that the compressor clutch is working. Check the ambient air temp and compare it w/ the vent temp. At an ambient air temp of 75-80 degrees F, you're looking for a 35-45 degrees F at the vent (about a 40 degree F difference, though close enough is good to). If you don't get the temps you want.....continue to add refrigerant (in the past, anywhere from 60-90% of the R-12 charge was reported to be good).......mindful that too much is no good and too little is no good......so, watch the pressure and temp readings.

Ambient air temps are taken 2” in front of the condenser. Vent temp is taken at the dash vent closest to the evaporator (usually one of the center vents).

Note the total charge and pressure readings, for future reference.

Aloha, Mark

PS......don't forget to label the system w/ a R-134a sticker.......so the next guy will know. And, IF the system still runs a little hot......you may have to go to an additional elec. fan in front of the condenser or a larger high-efficiency condenser.

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Now, I'm not an pro. Here is my thinking.......the 1st Gen with R-12 refrigerant used a red orifice tube.....my '94 with Factory R-134a uses a blue orifice tube.......so, does that mean that in any 1st Gen w/ R-134a, a blue orifice tube should be used?

POSSIBLY......remember I did say, "might."

I don't KNOW for sure.......IF, the '91-'93's systems are EXACTLY the same as the '94's system, except for the refrigerant used. In the '94 Explorer, the construction of the: condenser or evaporator or accumulator (not to mention capacity) could have been different (because of the fact that R-134a is used and not R-12). But, I also mentioned to change the low pressure switch.......NAPA, DOES SHOW different ones for the refrigerant used (R-12 vs. R-134a). Folks have also mentioned the heater manifold (in '94 a heater cut out was added), there have been different reports as to it's effectiveness (on a conversion system).

So......all together, will this be the ultimate set up, for a conversion 1st Gen AC system? Well, I don't have the PROOF........you could experiment, red vs. blue.......and report back......but, that experiment will cost you refrigerant. The FINAL decision is YOURS.

Humm......but the 2nd Gen vehicles uses a red one. Did the AC system change, again?

Aloha, Mark

PS......The accumulator needs to be correct for R-134a........I've heard that the desiccant might be different between a system built for R-12 vs. R-134a.........though, lately things may have changed.........either way.......BEST TO CHECK.

Lastly.......the system capacity for R-12 will differ from that of a system using R-134a......so, to get the BEST RESULTS, keep a close eye on the pressure gauges and temps. Record the final readings and put that conversion sticker on.........for the sake of the next guy.

In other words.........I won't pay them the $450..........expecially when they won't change the "O" rings.

Aloha, Mark
 






Here's the update:

Yes, I think the definitive answer is, I got screwed. At least, in price. Total was $650, and they had it in the shop for 3 days...

They replaced the orifice, the filter/dryer, and all the o-rings (after they took my suggestion to do a leak test and found three of them to be leaking).

Bearing in mind that this IS an RV, so it's not remotely as easy to access everything as our Explorers, plus the fact that I've spent way too much quality time on this unit in the spring (complete roof teardown and rebuild), plus the fact that I have some sort of Malaysian flu this week, I'm going to force myself not to be bitter about this one...

Mike
 






Well....thanks for the update. Hope you're feeling better soon......so, you could do some happy RVing stuff.

Aloha, Mark
 






Mike you didn't see their Big smile when you pulled in...The 134 Engine operated A/C in My 2002 454 chev. RV still leaks down after a month Been to the Rv dealer they don't work on the chassis parts..HuH and the sent me to The Shade Tree Garage (Yes that really is their name) Scares me.. As I was saying take a Boat or RV to anyshop and the price triples on any work done. Had same problem on the 27' Boat. Spent $1400. On Gas in 26 days on a dream trip .. Said enough. will get Harley to finish this one and stay in a motel every other night.. for less Money..
 






Too funny...

Yes, we have the RV because it supports the boating hobby, so I'm used to taking it on full from both ends! Take any product, add the words RV or MARINE to the packaging, charge 2-3 times as much!

The first sign is usually literally the sign at the counter. Labor Rate: $75. RV Labor Rate: $100. I've seen that at a Ford truck dealer. Mind you, this is a Class C, so it is exactly like working on any box truck. In other words, not fair!

Mike
 












Sorry to hear about this AC issue. Most leaks on not new vehicles usually end up being at least the o-rings. Those quick connect fittings always are flexible. The flexing is what makes the joints leak over time.

The best thing to do with any not new vehicle is to change all of the connection o-rings, and bolt on special locks to keep them from moving ever again. At about $16 each plus labor, that's cheap work, and any AC shop should have no trouble doing those. Regards,
 






Thanks Don I agree with you on that . they overcharged it and it kept Freezing up the core... I think I can do it right the first time . I can pull a vacuum before charging it..
 






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