A/C Diagnosis help | Ford Explorer Forums

  • Register Today It's free!

A/C Diagnosis help

n0c7

Active Member
Joined
April 3, 2006
Messages
88
Reaction score
0
City, State
Edmonton, Alberta
Year, Model & Trim Level
1993 Ford Explorer XLT
The A/C in my 1993 Explorer XLT has never been working since I bought it. There is a sticker stating that it was retrofitted for R134a in 2000. I attempted to refill the A/C with one can of R134a, the compressor kicked in, the charge pipe got cold, and things were looking up. But suddenly the compressor kicked off and would not come back on. The R134a has pine scent, no leak could be heard or smelt. I then took the system to be evacuated and attempted to recharge again. With no refrigrant, the compressor did not want to come on. I bypassed the pressure switch and continued to refill. It seemed to take the 3 cans, charge pipes got cold and I could hear and feel the refrigrant going in. The vents got mildy cold but not by much. After the cans were done, I let things run for 10-15 minutes and no difference. I plugged the pressure switch back in and the compressor will not come on by itself. I tried jumpering the switch again and I still get barely cold air no matter which temp setting I try. Any suggestions? The refrigerant isn't in the cans, and I didn't hear, smell or see ANY leak...
 



Join the Elite Explorers for $20 each year or try it out for $5 a month.

Elite Explorer members see no advertisements, no banner ads, no double underlined links,.
Add an avatar, upload photo attachments, and more!
.





n0c7,

I had a similar problem with my AC system.
I replaced the drier when converting over to R134.
I also read on here about checking/replacing the orifice tube - good thing I did. The tube looked like it had been dipped and deep-fried. There was no way the system was going to work like that.
If you have the system evacuated, it's not a hard or expensive job to do.

Check around on here, and you'll find lots of help.
I know I have.
Thanks everyone!
 






How do I go about checking the orifice tube out? Where is it located and can it be checked without first evacuating?
 






Sorry, you can't check it with the system charged.

Mine was located in one of the lines - sorry, I don't know all the proper terminology.
Under and just to the front on the drier, but not on the same line as the drier.
My dad crawled under and disconnected the line - there's a coupler right there - and pulled it out of the line with a pair of needle-nosed pliers.

It was gunked up something terrible. No doubt it had to be replaced.
I saw some pic on here somewhere of a stopped up one - mine was a lot worse.

Good luck!
 












Hi gloomis, thanks for the links. Read through them and I understand what it is now. Is there anything else I can attempt to try at this point? I do not have the proper equipment to evacuate my charge, vacuum, etc. This is a backyard job with limited resources at this time.
 






Also, with my refill kit low side manifold gauge, can I accurately check what PSI the low side is by simply hooking it up without a can? I tried this and I believe it said 56PSI but I don't know how accurate those gauges are.
 






n0c7,

Glad I could help a little, but I, too, an just a backyard mechanic - that's why I'm not sure about all the proper terms and such. :)
I'm glad to share with you what I know and what I've learned, but I'm far from being an expert on all this.

I'm not sure how the pressure's would be effected if the tube is gunked up.
I worked on another vehicle that my dad thought had a blockage somewhere in the system, and it would lock up the compressor when engaged.

Just do what I do - do a search, read a lot, then dive in and start figuring it out. Sometimes I even have to stop and come in and do a little more "reasearch". :)

This board has saved me hundreds - if not thousands - of dollars.
Thanks again to all of you out there!
 






The A/C in my 1993 Explorer XLT has never been working since I bought it. There is a sticker stating that it was retrofitted for R134a in 2000. I attempted to refill the A/C with one can of R134a, the compressor kicked in, the charge pipe got cold, and things were looking up. But suddenly the compressor kicked off and would not come back on. The R134a has pine scent, no leak could be heard or smelt.
Compressor will not come on unless the system has enough pressure. And, R-134a doesn't have a smell....not that you should be sniffing the stuff anyway.....use a elec. tester to sniff. Or, use a dye to test for leaks.
I then took the system to be evacuated and attempted to recharge again. With no refrigrant, the compressor did not want to come on.
W/o refrigerant it ain't suppose to kick on.
I bypassed the pressure switch and continued to refill. It seemed to take the 3 cans, charge pipes got cold and I could hear and feel the refrigrant going in. The vents got mildy cold but not by much. After the cans were done, I let things run for 10-15 minutes and no difference. I plugged the pressure switch back in and the compressor will not come on by itself.
Assuming that your charge was correct....the pressure switch may be bad......or you might have overcharged it. Also, check if your compressor is up to the job, thus the need for the dual gauge manifold.
I tried jumpering the switch again and I still get barely cold air no matter which temp setting I try. Any suggestions? The refrigerant isn't in the cans, and I didn't hear, smell or see ANY leak...
Don't use your nose to test for leaks.......use a dye or elec. tester. I'd hate to think that you might ruin your health.

Now......perhaps, you should start at the beginning. Note: I have a '94 and it came from the factory w/ R-134a.

I believe shamaal and some others (names, that I can't think of right now) did conversions......so, they would be a great resource.

To start:
What's wrong with my Air Conditioning?
A number of things can happen to make your A/C quit working. Here, we'll go over some of the common problems, and what you can do to fix it.

Leaks / Low Refrigerant
No A/C system is completely, 100% sealed. Over the years, small refrigerant particles will leak out, up to 1/2 ounce per year. On smaller-capacity systems, this will become noticeable a lot quicker than a larger capacity system. In this case, the most practical thing to do is simply add a bit more refrigerant. You will want to hook up a set of manifold gauges to make sure that the system has at least some pressure in it before you add refrigerant, because if the system is completely empty, you might have a most severe leak. At best, you will still have AIR in the system, and you want NO air in there.
Symptoms of low refrigerant include rapid cycling of the compressor clutch, or clutch will not engage, little or no cooling, very oily spots on A/C components.
A severe leak will require repair or component replacement. To find a leak, there must be some refrigerant in the system. An electronic 'sniffer' or dye are the most effective ways of finding a leak. Most A/C shops can perform this service for a minimal charge. Some retail auto parts stores also loan or rent tools for this.
Once the leak is identified, the component should be repaired or replaced, and the system serviced.
*Tip* - Evaporator leaks can be difficult to find, since the evaporator is usually not easily accessible, located in the dash of the vehicle. With dye in the system, place a white, preferably unused baby diaper under the evaporator drain tube. Moisture will drip on to the diaper. If there is dye in there, you'll know it!

Poor Airflow
One of the most-missed problems is poor airflow. Your A/C comes on, but it's not very cold. If you have a gauge, the high side pressure seems awfully high.
There are a couple of quick, easy things to check. First, make sure the condenser is debris-free, and that the fins are not all bent over. The condenser is located right in front of the radiator. Bugs, rocks, plastics bags, etc. covering the front of it prevent air from passing through, cooling not only your radiator, but also the refrigerant in the condenser.
All engines have either a fan clutch or radiator / condenser cooling fans. Fan clutch go out all the time. The fan clutch is located between the radiator and the engine, and has a big fan blade attached to it. With the engine on, that fan should be turning very fast, and moving a lot of air, TOWARDS the engine. Running correctly, you will not want to get your fingers near it. I recently repaired a 1996 Chevy truck that had blown the compressor shaft seal. While diagnosing the system, I noticed that the fan was barely turning. I could actually stop it with my hand. (not recommended for the non-professional) Because there was poor airflow, the pressure (pressure is temperature) built up from the condenser to the compressor, and was more than the compressor shaft seal could handle.
If the vehicle has an electric fan, make sure it (or they) comes on, and that the air is fast, and moving TOWARDS the engine. If the fan(s) does not come on, check the fuse. If that's not it, you may need to replace the fan.
*Tip* - You can confirm proper airflow by TEMPERATURE TESTING. A good thermometer that can be touched to the inlet and outlet of the condenser will confirm proper airflow. You should see a 20 to 40 degree drop from the inlet to the outlet of the 2 condenser pipes. For example, if you measure the temperature at the inlet (where it comes from the compressor) and have a temperature of 160 degrees, the outlet should be 100-140 degrees. Less than 20 degrees difference usually indicates poor airflow. MORE than 40 degrees usually indicates a restriction in the condenser.

Restrictions
A restiction is a condition where some piece of debris has lodged in a component, and is 'restricting' the flow of refrigerant. Condenser restrictions are the most common. Most late-model condensers have very small passages, as low as 6mms! When there is a restriction in the system, the flow of refrigerant is greatly slowed, or sometimes stopped completely. The blockage causes pressure to build up behind the restriction, and will cause damage to the components behind it.
The most effective way to locate a restriction is with temperature testing. With a good thermometer, temperature (which is pressure!) can be measured ANYWHERE on the system. Large drops in temperature can be identified and repaired. For example, a restircted condenser...If the inlet measures 160 degrees (about 295 psi) and the outlet measures 90 degrees (about 103 psi), it means the refrigerant is slowly leaking past a restriction. Because the refrigerant spends more time in the condenser, it has time to cool of more. Problem is, that 295 psi will continue to build back, and will eventually blow a seal somewhere, probably in the compressor.
Some restrictions can be repaired by flushing the restricted component, but parallel-flow condensers usually need to be replaced.

Improper Refrigerant Charge
As A/C systems become smaller and smaller, the amount of refrigerant in the system becomes critical. The correct charge for an A/C system has been calculated and engineered by vehicle manufacturers for optimum performance. Here are some tips to keep in mind when charging a system:
Charging with cans: A 12 ounce can of refrigerant gives you 12 ounces of refrigerant, right? Well, not always. If you are using a gauge set to charge, those hoses can hold up to 4 ounces of refrigerant themselves. On a 56 ounce capacity system, those 4 ounces might not make a big difference, but on a 1 pound system, you can bet it will. Also, notice how when you pull the can tap off, how the can wasn't quite empty? Yep, another ounce or 2 there.
Too much! Your A/C isn't quite cooling, so you run down to the parts store or a big box retail store, and buy a recharge kit. We in the industry call 'em suicide kits. You add a can of refrigerant. Well, with A/C, too much isn't better.
Retrofitting: Vehicles manufactured prior to 1993 and some 1994 originally came with R12 refrigerant. Because of the cost of that refrigerant, most folks opt to retrofit to R134a refrigerant. Problem is, there is no set standard for how much R134a refrigerant to use in an R12 system. There are many misconceptions about how much to use, and some people have come up with percentages of original charge. I've heard to use as little as 60% of the orginal charge!
So how do I know if I have the proper charge? Our old friend temperature testing can help determine if you have the proper charge. Orifice tube systems are the easiest and most accurately confirmed systems. It can be done on expansion valve systems, but you'll need to get on the evaporator side of the expansion valve.
Here's how: Measure the evaporator inlet pipe and record your temperature. Now measure the outlet pipe of the evaporator. Those 2 temperatures should be as close to equal as possible, at least within 5 degrees of each other. If the outlet is MORE than 5 degrees warmer than the inlet, you still need more refrigerant. If the outlet is MORE than 5 degrees cooler than the inlet, you have too much refrigerant in there.
Final tip: If your A/C is working, don't mess with. If you have an R12 system, you do NOT need to have it converted to R134a just because someone tells you that R12 is gone. If it's working, leave it alone.
If your system is working and sealed, you DO NOT need to replace your filter drier or accumulator. This is not a part that wears out. The only time you need to replace it is when the system is opened, or if you've had a leak that allows air (and moisture) into the system. If someone tells you you need to replace it every 3, 5 or 7 years, they're trying to sell you something.

_______________________________________________________________________

From:

http://reviews.ebay.com/A-C-Diagnosing_W0QQugidZ10000000000946036

_________________________________________________________________

Then.......decide IF you want to try DIY.......you'll need tools:
If you were planning on doing some AC work, there are few special tools that you’ll need. The recovery systems are usually cost prohibitive for most home DIY guys. As a plan of action, you could have the AC Shop test for leaks and/or recover the refrigerant from your system. Then, you could do the replacement of parts (if any) and recharge the system by yourself.

BTW….the links that I have provided here, are just to help you visualize the part ..you can buy from whomever, you want to.

For AC parts and tools, you could check with major AC Supply Houses like:

http://www.ackits.com/

http://www.acsource.com/

But, I’ve found some pretty good deals at my local Harbor Freight store. If you don’t have one close by, you could always mail order. Watch for their frequent sales. Hint: If there is a catalog (internet) sale, the local store will honor the sale price. Just print the page and take it into the store.

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/common/start.do

The dual gauge manifold set is needed for any serious DIY AC work.

Manifold set - http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=92649

Vacuum pump (evacuator):

Some folks have used a venturi style evacuator with success. Though, you will need a decent shop compressor to use it (one person commented that he used his with a 30 gallon Craftsmen 6 hp compressor). It works. Just not as easy to use as an electric evacuator pump.

venturi style evacuation - http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=92475

The elec. vacuum pumps are available from various mfns at different levels of suction power and prices. Ebay has a lot of them at very good prices. I got one for home use that is factory rated to suck down to the 50 micron level (paid about $125). Anything that will suck down to lower than 200 microns should be good enough.

Elec. Vacuum Pump -
http://www.napaonline.com/masterpag...PartNumber=781900&Description=A/C+Vacuum+Pump

***A Manifold Set and Vacuum Pump can usually be purchased as a kit (cheaper than the single prices).

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Smaller Tools:

You will still need the can tap connector that will be used to tap the sealed R-134a can and connect it to the yellow hose.

AC Can Tap - http://www.napaonline.com/masterpag...er=783012&Description=A/C+Refrigerant+Can+Tap

You’ll likely need a quick detach tool to get those AC lines open and/or disconnected. They can also be used for fuel lines.

quick detach tool - http://www.napaonline.com/masterpag...cription=A/C+&+Fuel+Line+Quick+Disconnect+Set

Also handy to remove the orifice tube….though, I’ve used a long nose pliers.

Orifice Removal Tool - http://www.napaonline.com/masterpag...er=783205&Description=A/C+Orifice+Tube+Puller

If you want to look for leaks yourself, here is a tool that retails at almost $100.

Leak detector - http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=92514


Aloha, Mark

Now......about "adding a can:"
When most folks say: I want to add a can of refrigerant to my system.

I’ll ask: Do you suspect a leak? Or, will it just be: add a bit of charge to the system? (If it is, skip to the "Typical- Add A Bit Of Charge")

Because…..leak testing is usually done by adding a dye into the system or with a sniffer. Once the leaking part is identified…..you gotta decide: Do I let the shop replace the part(s) or do I want to DIY?

If you’re gonna DIY the parts replacement……and IF the system is still under pressure…...it will need to be evacuated. Most DIY guys don‘t have the big bucks to buy an evacuation machine that will also recover the refrigerant. So, they leave that job for the shop. To release the R-134a into the atmosphere is unlawful.

However, IF the system is already empty……you could start replacing the leaking parts.

When the parts are replaced, don’t forget to add oil to the individual part(s). Oil is introduced to a specific part, at the installation time. The amount will vary, based on what part it is and the kind/brand of the system. Refer to a good book on the subject. Once the parts have been replaced and the system is buttoned up, it’s on to the next step.

We’ll continue…….by evacuating (AKA: vacuuming) the system. The vacuumed system will need to be checked for leaks. IF the vacuum doesn’t hold, you got a leak. IF the vacuum holds, you’ll usually vacuum the system for an additional ½ to 1 hour (to ”boil off” any air in the system). Once that is done, it's OK to proceed with recharging it.

Typical- Add A Bit Of Charge:

http://www.stu-offroad.com/engine/ac/ac-1.htm

Or, a full Re-charge (Best Way):

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158183

**Note: System pressures will vary between mfns and applications.

R-134a is replaced based on the system's capacity. See the under hood engine compartment sticker, AC book or NAPA chart (link below). IMHO.....don't use "R-134a w/stop leak"......use ONLY pure R134a.

http://www.napabeltshose.com/news/in...&show=newsitem

IF you overfill the system w/ oil or R-134a.....it could lead to more problems. Having the correct capacities of oil and R-134a in the system ensures "one less problem" to deal with.

Note: IMHO.....If the system is opened or was empty or if the accumulator is over 5 years old......replace the accumulator and orifice tube........save yourself from potential future problems.

Aloha, Mark


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hope this enough to get you started?

***Note that conversions maybe/are slightly DIFFERENT from factory R-134a units.....see the sticky (about R-12 and R-134a Conversions) at the AC Forum.

Aloha, Mark

PS....my '94 Explorer (w/ factory R-134a) used a blue orifice tube, some w/ R-12 systems have said they had a red orifice tube. And, as a COMPARISON.......the Haynes book says ('94 Ford Explorer w/factory R-134a system)........at ambient air temp of 80 degrees F, hi velocity fan in front of the condenser, 1500 RPM.........22-50 low side and 160-250 high side pressure. Capacities: oil 7 oz and R-134a 2.25 lbs (36 oz).**Conversion capacities will differ.**
 






Hi Mark,

Thanks for the information. I will read through the guides and see what happens. As for the "smell" the cans I bought have an added pine scent for detection.
 






Featured Content

Back
Top