Advice and suggestions needed

[greg s]

Hi All, Its been a while since I have posted on here as the old Explorer has been rolling along. Its a 1997 4wd 4.0 SOHC that I have had since 1998 and it now has over 300k on the clock. While it was still under warranty, the local Ford dealer did whatever the TSB / recall? called for to fix the timing chain problem. About 3-4 years ago the timing chains started rattling on start up. Since then, I have been using the "crutch" of cranking it at WOT to build up oil pressure on the tensioners and stop the rattle and it has worked. I noticed a few weeks ago that it has a rattle that sounds like detonation. Its a lite rattle that happens only when accelerating from 0-45 and if you let off the throttle the noise goes away. Once it gets above 45 the noise is no longer noticeable. Not sure how long it has been doing this and I haven't been able to diagnose the noise 100%. Thinking bad knock sensor, timing chain problem, torque converter rattle, etc. I decided to stop driving it until I can figure it out to limit any possible further damage. The thermostat housing is leaking again and I am going to need to replace that. Both temperature sensors are corroded and green. I replaced the spark plugs as they had substantial wear on one side but that did not change anything. Looking for advice and suggestions on diagnosing it further. Thanks

 

[Fbird]

step 1 run a 1/2 tank of PREMIUM UNLEADED...see if it "rattles" then (to eliminate spark knock diagnosis) then can move on to other checks. For convertor check place it in 3rd gear (NO OVERDRIVE) and lightly accelerate up a hill (to load the truck) this will evaluate the lock-up clutch in the convertor.
The timing chain will rattle at any speed (using manual shift on tranny)as it is RPM dependant not speed related. If you have a timing light and a ball peen hammer you can diagnose a knock sensor.

 

[donalds]

Sounds to me like a broken rear slack side chain guide
And as a result of that and
most likely a front jack shaft to crank tensioner as well

Keep doing the oil pressure wot thing it works
For you now is that " borrowed time"

 

[greg s]

Thanks Fbird for those recommendations. Couple of quick questions. Does it matter where you tap the engine to trigger the knock sensor? As for the torque converter test, what are you looking for? No noise, slippage?

donalds, as to the possible timing chain guide failure is there any way to know without complete tear down? In my research I discovered the manual chain adjusters and was thinking of swapping those in to keep from having to crank it at WOT every time.

So the truck has over 300k with the original timing components except for what ever the dealer did when it was under warranty. The truck is in overall fair condition, no cream puff but not a pos either. I rebuilt the transmission 100k ago, rebuilt the rear axle and transfer case and have done whatever maintenance and repair to keep it going all these years. My primary use is to go back and forth to work and around town. Its at the point that I dont mind carrying dirty things in it and using it more like a truck and less like a suv. I now have a second "clean, nice, dependable" vehicle to use to go places and on the interstate but would like to keep it that way and keep some miles off of it. So I feel like it would be a good thing to keep the Explorer going for as long as reasonably possible.

With that said, the thing thats always been in the back of my mind is a timing chain failure and the catastrophic damage it could cause. And if that did occur I probably would not spend the time or money to repair it.

If I decide to tackle the timing components now, what I need to understand is what it would require. Does the engine have to come out to repair everything? Could I just replace the guides without the chains? Is there a "minimum" repair that fixes the main problems and wear? I dont mind spending some time and money on it to keep it in service, but I would prefer to not make it some huge project. It does use oil, but I am ok with that. It has various leaks and is probably going to need a new ac compressor as well. I have a $500+/- budget in my head for parts and would like to keep it to no more than a month of weekends/evenings.

 

[donalds]

Here is a playlist WATCH IT
$500 on the real cheap side
Manual tensioner May work

 

[greg s]

Thanks for the link, I will watch it for sure.

 

[C420sailor]

I found that chain rattle was worse at a particular rpm. For me, it was idle and around 2200rpm.

I do the crank ‘trick’ even with good timing components. On cold and cold-ish starts only. I think that getting some oil pressure before letting the engine fire helps the whole engine.

I’m doing manual tensioners next.

 

[donalds]

If your guides are broken to badly
There is a chance that the rest of the guide can fall down when you remove the factory tensioner

If you are gonna be doing manual tensioners be careful

 

[drdoom]

Have you visually confirmed any broken cassettes or guides? I know at least one valve cover needs to be removed to see the right side rear chain. On the left look in the oil cap at the very least. Because if you see any broken cassettes, then it's in the oil pan too.
So if any of that plastic is broken or cracked it has to be taken apart and repaired. A sizeable job even for professionals.

 

[Olds67]

Here is a playlist WATCH IT
$500 on the real cheap side
Manual tensioner May work

Love this video!!!
Watched it a few months ago, and it made me realize that, when the time comes, the job can be done.
But that’s exactly why i didnt want to half ass it and just change the tensioners, when i have no idea how the guides look. It’s to big of a risk to remove a 20yo tensioner if the guide is already cracked. Because you might not notice it and on first start you could ruin your engine.
My rattles diminished after the first oil change and when cold it’d be definitely rattling if i didn’t use the wot technique. Since then no rattle.
I found the time this week and started with the manifold/valve cover removal just as a precaution. Lower oil pan was sparkling clean, no plastic etc.
I will at least be able to see the two tensioners/chains/guides and decide if it’s safe to swap them.
If i was OP I‘d start like that.

 

[drdoom]

Greg I have the same truck as you, for over twenty years. Same history, same rebuilds, recalls, pretty much exactly.
I had a left cassette failure, jumped a tooth, busted valve cover, etc.
Using a scrap of dog chain, some junk bolts, shims, clamps etc. I replaced the cassette with the $7.83 shipped eBay cassette, and re-timed the engine. 36,000 miles ago. I bought no gaskets, seals or tools. Of course I pulled the oil pan to get all the fragments out. Reused everything, I mean this truck is old, just RTV. JB Weld on the valve cover damage.
So no other cost other than an oil change.

 

[Fbird]

the NO OVERDRIVE was to listen for a possible convertor lock up failure. the hammer is only good WHILE monitoring the timing on a light! IIRC need to be above 1500 rpm.

 

[greg s]

Greg I have the same truck as you, for over twenty years. Same history, same rebuilds, recalls, pretty much exactly.
I had a left cassette failure, jumped a tooth, busted valve cover, etc.
Using a scrap of dog chain, some junk bolts, shims, clamps etc. I replaced the cassette with the $7.83 shipped eBay cassette, and re-timed the engine. 36,000 miles ago. I bought no gaskets, seals or tools. Of course I pulled the oil pan to get all the fragments out. Reused everything, I mean this truck is old, just RTV. JB Weld on the valve cover damage.
So no other cost other than an oil change.

I like your style. How many miles on yours? Prior to the left cassette failure did you notice any new noises? I am guessing all the rest of the timing components are still original? Have you done anything with the tensioners?

 

[greg s]

I found that chain rattle was worse at a particular rpm. For me, it was idle and around 2200rpm.

I do the crank ‘trick’ even with good timing components. On cold and cold-ish starts only. I think that getting some oil pressure before letting the engine fire helps the whole engine.

I’m doing manual tensioners next.

Did you replace your timing components yet? Or are you still on the originals?

 

[greg s]

Love this video!!!
Watched it a few months ago, and it made me realize that, when the time comes, the job can be done.
But that’s exactly why i didnt want to half ass it and just change the tensioners, when i have no idea how the guides look. It’s to big of a risk to remove a 20yo tensioner if the guide is already cracked. Because you might not notice it and on first start you could ruin your engine.
My rattles diminished after the first oil change and when cold it’d be definitely rattling if i didn’t use the wot technique. Since then no rattle.
I found the time this week and started with the manifold/valve cover removal just as a precaution. Lower oil pan was sparkling clean, no plastic etc.
I will at least be able to see the two tensioners/chains/guides and decide if it’s safe to swap them.
If i was OP I‘d start like that.

So with the valve covers removed and the bottom oil pan off you are able to get a decent visual on the chains and guides to tell there condition?

 

[greg s]

I have been looking around at different timing parts and "kits" just trying to figure a few things out. Does anybody have experience with the various no name complete kits as to there overall quality and fitment? I see on RA they have economy and standard that range from $125 to $275 for the kit. I have found sometimes the import stuff is worse than the worn out original stuff. I do see everyone recommends the oem Ford tensioners if I go that route.

Also I see a lot of people deleting the balance shaft usually by cutting the chain and leaving the rest in there. If I was to pull the engine and replace all the components would it be best to not bother with the balance shaft?

For the people that have replaced there original timing chains and sprockets was there a noticeable amount of wear? Just wondering how much slack there would be if I just replaced the guides and tensioners?

 

[C420sailor]

I’m on the originals…of a new motor. I swapped in a 2010 Ranger long block, currently has about 160k on the motor.

 

[drdoom]

I like your style. How many miles on yours? Prior to the left cassette failure did you notice any new noises? I am guessing all the rest of the timing components are still original? Have you done anything with the tensioners?

Greg, I am at 290,000 miles. Heck of a good truck.
I didn't notice any noise prior to needing repair. The guide arm just gave out one day driving home. Didn't notice that either, other than the idle was a bit rough. Ran fine, revved up, good power. I drove on home, and it was then that I smelled oil and found a quarter sized hole in the left valve cover.
It had the M012 kit installed by the dealership under recall at low mileage.
That is only for the left side, a plug of some type for an oil passageway, and the updated hydraulic tensioner.
Nothing else has been replaced.
Rear tensioner is original, front is from the recall.

 

[C420sailor]

Ford recommends replacement of the tensioners every 75,000mi.

I just replaced mine—probably closer to 120,000mi (oops) and the difference in startup clatter was pretty dramatic. I think @donalds recently cut open an old hydraulic tensioner and found that it has rubber seals in it that may dry out. The spring also weakens over time, and this is what keeps things somewhat under control until oil pressure builds.

I can say with authority that the truck sounded better on both cold and warm start without pre-cranking to prime the system. The old tensioners were clearly shot, and I wouldn’t consider them a ‘lifetime’ component. I should’ve done mine closer to 75k.

I still crank mine to develop pressure on cold start.

Manual tensioners are next for me.

 

[donalds]