Body on Frame vs Unibody

[dtr]

Current administration will not be in office then so those numbers could change...

I thought they were passed by congress and I do not see them being reduced.

I could be wrong but I see 6 cylinders with turbos or diesels for people with larger towing needs in our future (do not assume I like the changes)

On Edit - original rules passed by congress but most recent rquirements by current administration

"On July 29, 2011, President Obama announced an agreement with thirteen large automakers to increase fuel economy to 54.5 miles per gallon for cars and light-duty trucks by model year 2025. He was joined by Ford, GM, Chrysler, BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Jaguar/Land Rover, Kia, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota, and Volvo—which together account for over 90% of all vehicles sold in the United States—as well as the United Auto Workers (UAW), and the State of California, who were all participants in the deal.[40] The agreement will result in new CAFE regulations for model year 2017-2025 vehicles which were finalized on August 28, 2012.[41] "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy

I think the agreement of 90% of auto makers and the UAW makes it unlikely there will be any significant reduction in mpg requirements.

 

[Explorer0204]

I thought they were passed by congress and I do not see them being reduced.

I could be wrong but I see 6 cylinders with turbos or diesels for people with larger towing needs in our future (do not assume I like the changes)

On Edit - original rules passed by congress but most recent rquirements by current administration

"On July 29, 2011, President Obama announced an agreement with thirteen large automakers to increase fuel economy to 54.5 miles per gallon for cars and light-duty trucks by model year 2025. He was joined by Ford, GM, Chrysler, BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Jaguar/Land Rover, Kia, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota, and Volvo—which together account for over 90% of all vehicles sold in the United States—as well as the United Auto Workers (UAW), and the State of California, who were all participants in the deal.[40] The agreement will result in new CAFE regulations for model year 2017-2025 vehicles which were finalized on August 28, 2012.[41] "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy

I think the agreement of 90% of auto makers and the UAW makes it unlikely there will be any significant reduction in mpg requirements.

Your PROBABLY correct...but one can only hope. That being said depending on where technology is by then it may not really matter anyway...possibly. Who knows that is 11 whole years out alot can happen.

To me, that seems to be a lofty goal. But that being said, the averages were a lot lower in the early 2000s than now so it could be doable. I just wonder at what cost? Sub compacts are notoriously dangerous http://www.latimes.com/business/aut...-tests-20140121,0,2230299.story#axzz2rL6sBN00

and if they keep trying to drive up the sales of them we may save the environment but be killing more people.....not ok in my book.

 

[dtr]

Your PROBABLY correct...but one can only hope. That being said depending on where technology is by then it may not really matter anyway...possibly. Who knows that is 11 whole years out alot can happen.

To me, that seems to be a lofty goal. But that being said, the averages were a lot lower in the early 2000s than now so it could be doable. I just wonder at what cost? Sub compacts are notoriously dangerous http://www.latimes.com/business/aut...-tests-20140121,0,2230299.story#axzz2rL6sBN00

and if they keep trying to drive up the sales of them we may save the environment but be killing more people.....not ok in my book.

You are correct. I have not verified this but an astute friend said the survival rate increases a lot above 3500 lb. I am sure it also depends on which study you read.

Vehicle weight is only one factor, but it is one I include in my decisions.

 

[colintrax]

Survival rate probably increases with vehicle weight because a heavier vehicle has more momentum. Less acceleration/deaccelration forces on the occupants. At the same time it's more apt to plow through vehicle barriers and go over the bridge, into oncoming traffic, into trees, ect. It can also concentrate the impact instead of allowing the vehicle to slide. Like getting T-boned in the drivers side door, I'd rather have a light vehicle that'll slide out the way. Not a large vehicle that doesn't wanna move and just crumbles in the door.

 

[Explorer0204]

Survival rate probably increases with vehicle weight because a heavier vehicle has more momentum. Less acceleration/deaccelration forces on the occupants. At the same time it's more apt to plow through vehicle barriers and go over the bridge, into oncoming traffic, into trees, ect. It can also concentrate the impact instead of allowing the vehicle to slide. Like getting T-boned in the drivers side door, I'd rather have a light vehicle that'll slide out the way. Not a large vehicle that doesn't wanna move and just crumbles in the door.

I just saw those stats and they scared me... That being said I ride a Harley 10k miles a year so I have bigger problems realistically. Worth noting though for people who tout little cars TOO much if you know what I mean.

 

[dtr]

Survival rate probably increases with vehicle weight because a heavier vehicle has more momentum. Less acceleration/deaccelration forces on the occupants. At the same time it's more apt to plow through vehicle barriers and go over the bridge, into oncoming traffic, into trees, ect. It can also concentrate the impact instead of allowing the vehicle to slide. Like getting T-boned in the drivers side door, I'd rather have a light vehicle that'll slide out the way. Not a large vehicle that doesn't wanna move and just crumbles in the door.

Having seen a lot of simulations while supporting a group analyzing various effects in a former life. I prefer bigger, with steel beams in the door to prevent penetration into the occupant area (quite common now). Side air bags would be nice as well. in addition to airbags almost everywhere

Mostly I just look for high impact ratings from crash tests.

You can believe small is better but test results do not support that point of view. You might want to read the article previously cited http://www.latimes.com/business/aut...-tests-20140121,0,2230299.story#axzz2rL6sBN00

 

[colintrax]

Having seen a lot of simulations while supporting a group analyzing various effects in a former life. I prefer bigger, with steel beams in the door to prevent penetration into the occupant area (quite common now). Side air bags would be nice as well. in addition to airbags almost everywhere

Mostly I just look for high impact ratings from crash tests.

You can believe small is better but test results do not support that point of view. You might want to read the article previously cited http://www.latimes.com/business/aut...-tests-20140121,0,2230299.story#axzz2rL6sBN00

I wasn't saying smaller is better, but simply larger isn't better. Some are better for different types of accidents, unfortunately you can't pick your accident

 

[OffTrac]

My wife doesn't "feel" safe in smaller vehicles. The Edge was the best compromise I could get but she wants an Explorer next to get back 3rd row. Her last vehicle was a Z71 Tahoe on 33s. Her feelings matter more than statistics. Anybody else married? Can I get an amen?!

 

[Explorer0204]

My wife doesn't "feel" safe in smaller vehicles. The Edge was the best compromise I could get but she wants an Explorer next to get back 3rd row. Her last vehicle was a Z71 Tahoe on 33s. Her feelings matter more than statistics. Anybody else married? Can I get an amen?!

Screw the new explorer she needs a new Expedition!!! On 34s just to one up herself!!!

 

[OffTrac]

Screw the new explorer she needs a new Expedition!!! On 34s just to one up herself!!!

Haha, vetoed! She didn't get 33s to be the biggest or anything machismo like that. She was just concerned that the 32s didn't look like they fill the wheel well enough. It's all about looks, comfort and feeling safe with her. That's why it's a tuxedo black (always and only black) explorer sport next.

I've tried for a Fusion or Escape and while they fulfill two of her criteria, she just didn't feel safe in anything smaller. It's not an argument that can be won with facts and statistics.

In fact, that last sentence can probably just sum up this whole thread.

 

[dtr]

I wasn't saying smaller is better, but simply larger isn't better. Some are better for different types of accidents, unfortunately you can't pick your accident

Yes it is actually simple, everything else being equal larger is better in most reasonable tests and realistic real life accident scenarios

 

[sloop]

the tide is turning - in 3 years the country will be demanding all the rules put in place during this administration be reversed

i am sick of looking at $200,000 eggs that look like the $40,000 eggs - the difference is how far back the headlamps are raked

none of this should be a function of government - the market is smarter than all government bureaucrats living and dead combined - but misguided ideologues cannot accept that fact and will shove their failing theories on everyone, given the chance

cafe standards have caused deaths - some will deny it - some are willing to accept cafe standards as a fact of life ('that is not going to change') - some will fight them

i wish those willing to accept them (and the accompanying deaths) would all go buy smart cars and leave people alone that want (or need) a heavy 4 wheel drive body on frame vehicle or a vehicle with character and style that may be less than aerodynamically svelt

like my deliciously inefficient mark v lead sled belching greenhouse gasses from its 460 cid engine as it hauls my backside down the road in style, comfort...and safety

 

[Explorer0204]

the tide is turning - in 3 years the country will be demanding all the rules put in place during this administration be reversed

i am sick of looking at $200,000 eggs that look like the $40,000 eggs - the difference is how far back the headlamps are raked

none of this should be a function of government - the market is smarter than all government bureaucrats living and dead combined - but misguided ideologues cannot accept that fact and will shove their failing theories on everyone, given the chance

cafe standards have caused deaths - some will deny it - some are willing to accept cafe standards as a fact of life ('that is not going to change') - some will fight them

i wish those willing to accept them (and the accompanying deaths) would all go buy smart cars and leave people alone that want (or need) a heavy 4 wheel drive body on frame vehicle or a vehicle with character and style that may be less than aerodynamically svelt

like my deliciously inefficient mark v lead sled belching greenhouse gasses from its 460 cid engine as it hauls my backside down the road in style, comfort...and safety

This comment is just....pure awesome. I don't know what else to say about it but that it is awesome.

 

[colintrax]

Yes it is actually simple, everything else being equal larger is better in most reasonable tests and realistic real life accident scenarios

In most I've seen it's not. You seem to be missing what I'm saying, you can't buy a larger vehicle claiming it's safer. You might get side swooped on the interstate and run into the guard rail at the bridge. Bet we can both agree a lighter vehicle that crumbles up is gonna be safer than falling down into the river.
I don't have much fear except an unreasonable fear of needles. So I feel safe driving whatever, even a motorcycle. However I'm very happy my moms civic is gone and replaced with the escape. I feel like she's safer in it

 

[dtr]

In most I've seen it's not. You seem to be missing what I'm saying, you can't buy a larger vehicle claiming it's safer. You might get side swooped on the interstate and run into the guard rail at the bridge. Bet we can both agree a lighter vehicle that crumbles up is gonna be safer than falling down into the river.
I don't have much fear except an unreasonable fear of needles. So I feel safe driving whatever, even a motorcycle. However I'm very happy my moms civic is gone and replaced with the escape. I feel like she's safer in it

I understand what you are saying, but it makes no sense.

A bigger vehicle - everything else being equal - is safer in realistic testing and realistic real life accidents

Even the extreme examples you make up are convoluted - "side swooped" big vehicles get knocked farther than small vehicles?????????

See how far you can throw a 10 lb vs a 20 pound weight and see if the 20 lb one goes further.

 

[Blue 94 XLT]

Thank you all for the great read. The Explorer is a crossover now, not a SUV. Will stick to keeping my '97 on the road as long as possible, will never own an 5th gen, that is for sure.

 

[peterk9]

Thank you all for the great read. The Explorer is a crossover now, not a SUV. Will stick to keeping my '97 on the road as long as possible, will never own an 5th gen, that is for sure.

It still is referred to as an SUV in some circles. The Edge is a crossover. In any case it doesn't matter what anyone calls it, times change and manufacturers change their products along with them if they want to stay in business. The 5th generation Explorer, while not a rock crawler, is also much more off-road capable than many give it credit for. There are several posts in the Forum to indicate that.

Peter

 

[colintrax]

I understand what you are saying, but it makes no sense.

A bigger vehicle - everything else being equal - is safer in realistic testing and realistic real life accidents

Even the extreme examples you make up are convoluted - "side swooped" big vehicles get knocked farther than small vehicles?????????

See how far you can throw a 10 lb vs a 20 pound weight and see if the 20 lb one goes further.

Sorry, swiped not swooped. Autocorrect

I understand physics, I don't care if you're driving a miata or an Armored Tahoe. If a big rig changes lanes into you, you're leaving your lane. The miata being smaller is 1. less likely to get hit in the first place being smaller and more maneuverable. 2. more likely to regain control and not leave the asphalt. 3. less likely to go past vehicle barriers.

Yes, it's a what if. It's to prove my point. Not every accident says bigger vehicles are safer. Maybe more accidents are safer in larger vehicles. But not ALL. Besides, if people drove smaller vehicles there would be less accidents and less road rage.

If you want a real life example I could tell you about my mom's 2 accidents in her civic. The first one I was glad she was driving the little civic, the 2nd I would have rather it been in the escape. Or better yet an armored Tahoe with claymores that would've blown into the other vehicle.

I can also tell you about my accident. Where a smaller vehicle may not have ended up in the ditch. But wouldn't have been able to drive back home either

 

[Kpwweb]

It still is referred to as an SUV in some circles. The Edge is a crossover. In any case it doesn't matter what anyone calls it, times change and manufacturers change their products along with them if they want to stay in business. The Explorer, while not a rock crawler, is also much more off-road capable than many give it credit for. There are several posts in the Forum to indicate that.

Peter

Peter is right... And the previous BOF Exs weren't rock crawlers either... See the clearance between frame and ground? Eeeek! If it were, we would be driving, and talking about something different!

Ford just better adapted 5th gen for what people were using it for... And foreseeable regs...

So sorry, but if you go out to Moab your not going to see many of ANY Explorer... Might as well make a spade a spade...

 

[dtr]

Peter is right... And the previous BOF Exs weren't rock crawlers either... See the clearance between frame and ground? Eeeek! If it were, we would be driving, and talking about something different!

Ford just better adapted 5th gen for what people were using it for... And foreseeable regs...

So sorry, but if you go out to Moab your not going to see many of ANY Explorer... Might as well make a spade a spade...

check out http://www.traildamage.com or http://www.jeeptheusa.com/

both list lots of trails in Moab and a lot of other places. There are trails in Moab suitable for the current EX

according to people who rock crawl in jeeps a lot trails 2 or lower should be rather doable with an EX. Clearly that means no rock crawling. It does not mean you can not enjoy easier trails.

on edit - I have been told Sand Flats Road and Gemini Bridges should be doable with the EX by a few MH owners who tow jeep wranglers and there are several other easy trails with great scenery or hiking