Coils or Coilovers - SAS

[taxx]

I thought I would post this to see what kind of responses I will get. A couple have already done the SAS on a second gen and a couple are in the process. However everybody to this point has done leafs. Proly cause it is easier (?), or cheaper. But when I do mine I want to do it right. I have already decided on a D-44, obvious choice I think. What I am still toying with is spring setups. I don't want to go to al this trouble for leafs up front. So that leaves me with a couple alternatives, coils or coil overs. what are the pros and cons to these two routes. Are coilovers really gonna be a lot more money when it is all said and done? Are my axle choices increased with coilover since brackets will have to be fabbed?

What are your inputs?

 

[TarHeel085]

with coilovers your gonna have to make special hoops that go up into the engine compartment, with coils your gonna have to get shock towers and then fab some kind of radius arm mounts. either way its not gonna be cheap, but i wanna see what CoryL come up with before i start to buy anything like an IFS lift or buy parts for an SAS but good luck with it.

 

[Robb]

However everybody to this point has done leafs. Proly cause it is easier (?),

Cory..............I smell a challenge!

Robb

 

[CoryL]

I will be doing JoshC's rig with coils. Mainly because they are a lot cheaper than coilovers.

A pair of 14" stroke 2" diameter Sway-a-Way emulsion dual rate coilovers with springs and hardware kits retail for $1200.

The benefits are:

Easy to buy new coils to change the spring rates.
Rebuildable.
Takes up less space.
More easily mounted.

Cons:

Cost!
Cost!
More complex, so if you lose the shock shaft, you lose the entire suspension on that side.

As for pure suspension, they serve the same purpose. Both are coils at the end of the day.

So compare $1200 for coilovers vs. $160 for 3.5" VR Wildhorses Rockcrawler coils and $100 for some Rancho shocks.

For me I needed the space saving and ease of mounting. Plus I got mine at about cost.

 

[Isles4evr]

He has spoken... haha!

I do have one question concerning coil vs leaf. How does the amount of flex in the suspension vary from leafs to coils?

 

[CoryL]

Originally posted by Isles4evr
He has spoken... haha!

I do have one question concerning coil vs leaf. How does the amount of flex in the suspension vary from leafs to coils?

You can get leafs to flex really well.

The down side to them is that their approach and departure angles SUCK. Plus the leafs locate and suspend the vehicle. Double duty.

 

[Isles4evr]

Alright, so I am guessing to flex nicley you'll probably use many, thin leaves. Answered my questing.

Thanks
Chris

 

[RFR2212]

Originally posted by CoryL
You can get leafs to flex really well.

The down side to them is that their approach and departure angles SUCK. Plus the leafs locate and suspend the vehicle. Double duty.

Leaves are my plan come my axle swap... yeah, i yap about it, even though the damn truck dont run

Easy to setup... Flexible... departure angle isn't as good as before... But simplistics will play the biggest roll w/ full width for me
Pete

 

[taxx]

So will coils flex as well as coilovers and would I be as happy with them later on? I know I would rather spend a little more time fabricating to save $1K! I thought that they where cheeper than that, but if they are that much, unless there is a huge benifit, I'll have ot stick with coils.

In that case then I need an axle from a truck that already had coils, don't I? Then weld some buckets on the frame? SHock mounts will be easy.

 

[CoryL]

Originally posted by taxxman2k
So will coils flex as well as coilovers and would I be as happy with them later on? I know I would rather spend a little more time fabricating to save $1K! I thought that they where cheeper than that, but if they are that much, unless there is a huge benifit, I'll have ot stick with coils.

In that case then I need an axle from a truck that already had coils, don't I? Then weld some buckets on the frame? SHock mounts will be easy.

Coilovers are coils. They just have the shock as the support to the frame and axle. Flex can be identical.

You can use an axle with leafs if you want. You will have to make all the mounts and stuff that way however.

This is why people with TTB vehicles use the D44 from an EB when they swap. It pretty much bolts in and you only have to modify the coil buckets slightly to run the EB coils.

When you go coils, DO NOT RUN TTB coils. THEY SUCK!

Cory

 

[taxx]

When you go coils, DO NOT RUN TTB coils. THEY SUCK!

You just can't say that enough

How does the width of the d44 form an EB compare? We talking slapping it under there and then only neading to mod some coil buckets for the frame, steering, and control arms, and some shock mounts?


I gotta research the controll arm setup still. But it would be goot to know how well this axle fits up if it is that smooth of a swap I will have to start searching for one soon. Gonna buy the parts as I fugure it out and come accross them that way the money isn't all at once.

 

[Xplodor]

I'm going to do Coilovers when I do my swap early next year.

Does anyone have the widths that we need to cut the D44 to? I think we need the end to end measurement, and then the driver end to middle of driveshaft/pumpkin right? Anyone have numbers so I can start working on getting prices?

 

[CoryL]

The EB D44 is slightly wider than the D35 TTB setup.

It seems to be a good width for a trail rig. Not too wide and not too narrow.

To run the EB D44, I would reuse the radius arm and trac-bar setups. They are proven and work well. So all you would potentially need to do to "slap it under there" is make or modify EB D44 radius arm brackets to bolt to the frame, make a trac-bar bracket to mount to the frame, make some coil buckets to mount to the frame, and deal with the steering dilemma.

I wouldn't cut down an EB D44. It is already narrow enough and the money it would cost would be a waste for what you wouldn't even gain.

If you want to cut down a full width axle, I think it is something like 5.85" off the passengerside and tha is it.

Try a search, as I have read it here somewhere.

 

[oso_polar]

So, what if someone want to run a full width axle, and don't want to cut it down, If leafs are used, could the pumpking be alligned with the front driveshaft? OR will it be a side with a tire out and a side with a tire in???

Something like this:
| EXPLORER FRONT |
O=======o====O

Or Something like this:
...| EXPLORER FRONT |
O========o===O

"O" Stand for Tires
"o" Stand for Pumpking
"=" Stand for Axle

Hope you guys understand my codes!!

 

[CoryL]

Originally posted by oso_polar
So, what if someone want to run a full width axle, and don't want to cut it down, If leafs are used, could the pumpking be alligned with the front driveshaft? OR will it be a side with a tire out and a side with a tire in???

You build the mounts on the frame so that the axle is centered.

 

[taxx]

Guess I am searching for an EB D44! Know of any let me know!

 

[RangerX]

Originally posted by CoryL
When you go coils, DO NOT RUN TTB coils. THEY SUCK!

Cory, I've seen you and others say this this before. I know they flex for crap, cuz I have them, so I don't doubt you. But can you explain WHY? If you have two Ex's, one with TTB and one with a solid axle both w/coils, I understand how the solid axle can articulate better, (seesaw action vs. TTB's broken seesaw).Why do the coils have such an effect? If I swapped in EB coils, would I get more compression w/ my TTB? Thanks. I've been wanting to ask you this for awhile. This thread is a good place to ask!

 

[CoryL]

Originally posted by RangerX
Cory, I've seen you and others say this this before. I know they flex for crap, cuz I have them, so I don't doubt you. But can you explain WHY? If you have two Ex's, one with TTB and one with a solid axle both w/coils, I understand how the solid axle can articulate better, (seesaw action vs. TTB's broken seesaw).Why do the coils have such an effect? If I swapped in EB coils, would I get more compression w/ my TTB? Thanks. I've been wanting to ask you this for awhile. This thread is a good place to ask!

TTB coils are stiff by nature. That is the way they are. Stiff springs don't "sag" as much as softer springs. So it is easier to get lift.

In my opinion aftermarket springs for EBs and such are usually softer because 1) they have a solid axle, so flex is important and 2) because it is a solid axle, the effect of one side, has the opposite effect on the other. So softer coils mean a better ride.

Swapping in EB coils to a TTB would require a new lower coil mount and reworking the coil bucket slightly.

Doable, but you might lose some lift since they are softer.

 

[CoryL]

Originally posted by taxxman2k
Guess I am searching for an EB D44! Know of any let me know!

76-77 would be choice as they came with discs. Get as much as you can. Radius arms, radius arm drop brackets, trac bar, tracbar drop bracket, etc. Skip the steering unless it is free because it is the same inverted Y setup that TTBs use and IT SUCKS.

If you find a 77 rolling chassis, get the 9" rear axle as well and swap it in. 31 spline, big bearing axle. NO C-CLIPS!!! Much better axle than the 8.8" despite what everyone here believes.

 

[SteveVB]

some other thoughts

On another note, what about a Wrangler, or Cherokee axle/suspension in the front. Ive read most of the SAS posts and I dont think Ive read anything about using a Wrangler or Cherokee axle up front.
I was looking at a Wrangler with a Long Arm Suspension by Rubicon express? (im not sure of the make) The suspension looks awfully similar to the Early Bronco radius arm suspension. Rather than the C-bushing at the axle it has the 4 link mounting, with the upper links tying into a large lower link which heads back to a single mount at the middle of the frame. Seems like it would work (flex and drive) a bit better than the C bushing axle mount. Fabbing it to the Explorer shouldnt be any harder than the EB style - still one mounting point on the frame - steering issues would be the same, the additional bracketry would be on the axle, and already attached. Any reason this wouldn't work on a SAS?. Seems like it would flex a bit better than the C bushing setup, and for those of us who drive on the road I would think it would be much better.

The diff is on the correct side, but anyone know the wheel mounting face to face dimensions and spring mounts and whether they can be used?

I know the front axles of the Jeeps are Dana 30s, but I believe some of them are rev cut with decent sized u-joints, and tons of upgrade parts are avail for a mild SAS. May be easier on the budget until a larger D44 axle could be obtained.

Just some thoughts