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Did you all see the rip off Peterson gave the new X
- Thread starter JoshC
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Good thing i haven't told anyone that i was a spelling major!!!!racinhound-Dale
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Actually you keep bringing these founded comments on yourself IMO. You boost and boost about the prowess of the new suspension styles but then always revert back to the "Look at my name" comment when hard pressed. Yes it is all relative to what you want out of your truck but the long and short is that SLA IRS TTB are limited in capabilities in the majority of Off-road Terrains hands down. Am I badmouthing your truck NO. I really like the FX4, I too saw it in action at Wellsville. Yea it did some amazing **** for a SLA but you also had 2 guys it that rig that just didn't give a monkey's ass about it either. My point I guess is that although both very nice vehicles neither the new Explorer's or the FX4 should expect an extremely postive "Offroad Capabilty" article anytime soon.
foley
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dale's got a point....
First off, the SLA?..
SLA = Short Long Arm, as earlier noted.
It is a cute name for what was commonly known in the design world as "unequal length wishbone." This is opposed to an "equal length wishbone." An Equal length wishbone allows ABSOLUTELY no camber change through travel... Sounds great... but it actually sucks. The first F1 cars had it, and they figured out really quick that although camber change is nonexistent, body roll is not accounted for, which hurts its performance WAY more than camber change.
Unequal length wishbone allows for camber change with travel to compensate for body roll, and SIGNIFICANTLY improves handling... But it allows camber change, which means that cycleing the suspension beyond a small angle leads to unacceptable, non linear camber change. The more unequal length, the more the camber change.
Obviously, like any suspension, increased link length improves travel, but in the case of unequal length wishbones, the % difference in length is what allows camber change, so lengthening the links does not help the need for controlled camber change.
Back to the drawing board.. need travel, need camber change... so the "unequal length" becomes "unequal length, non-parallel" which optimizes the camber change over a wider range of travel, and gets you back some more range to cycle the suspension.
You can keep playing the game forever and gain travel with longer lengths and better geometry. in my opinion the next step will be "unequal length, non parallel, OVERLAPPING" wishbone. Which will allow the wishbones to be longer than 1/2 the track width, which I have never seen actually done, and it will approximate the wheel travel from a TTB.
What makes a SLA type suspsension suck offroad is not the range of travel achieved by the links, THAT feature can be improved, as I was just talking about.
Think jeep for a minute (or the short wheelbase 4x4 of your choice). They have rear driveshaft problems because of U joint angles, caused by the terrible ratio of the vertical and horizontal distances between the t-case output and the rearend.
SLA suspensions have the same problems. They do not use U joints, they use CV joints (I am not typing enough to explain that one, they have to, deal with it). A CV joint is only good for about 20 degrees of deflection, and you run into compound angles when you droop the suspension and turn the wheel at the same time, so you must limit wheel travel in order to protect the CV joint from being deflected over too wide of an angle....
And by the way, when deflected, a CV joint starts getting into parts of the cup that have thinner and thinner walls, an will eventually get too thin to be strong and break.
And we all know that wheel travel make you wheel better
And that is why all the Independent suspensions are at best a compromise offroad
First off, the SLA?..
SLA = Short Long Arm, as earlier noted.
It is a cute name for what was commonly known in the design world as "unequal length wishbone." This is opposed to an "equal length wishbone." An Equal length wishbone allows ABSOLUTELY no camber change through travel... Sounds great... but it actually sucks. The first F1 cars had it, and they figured out really quick that although camber change is nonexistent, body roll is not accounted for, which hurts its performance WAY more than camber change.
Unequal length wishbone allows for camber change with travel to compensate for body roll, and SIGNIFICANTLY improves handling... But it allows camber change, which means that cycleing the suspension beyond a small angle leads to unacceptable, non linear camber change. The more unequal length, the more the camber change.
Obviously, like any suspension, increased link length improves travel, but in the case of unequal length wishbones, the % difference in length is what allows camber change, so lengthening the links does not help the need for controlled camber change.
Back to the drawing board.. need travel, need camber change... so the "unequal length" becomes "unequal length, non-parallel" which optimizes the camber change over a wider range of travel, and gets you back some more range to cycle the suspension.
You can keep playing the game forever and gain travel with longer lengths and better geometry. in my opinion the next step will be "unequal length, non parallel, OVERLAPPING" wishbone. Which will allow the wishbones to be longer than 1/2 the track width, which I have never seen actually done, and it will approximate the wheel travel from a TTB.
What makes a SLA type suspsension suck offroad is not the range of travel achieved by the links, THAT feature can be improved, as I was just talking about.
Think jeep for a minute (or the short wheelbase 4x4 of your choice). They have rear driveshaft problems because of U joint angles, caused by the terrible ratio of the vertical and horizontal distances between the t-case output and the rearend.
SLA suspensions have the same problems. They do not use U joints, they use CV joints (I am not typing enough to explain that one, they have to, deal with it). A CV joint is only good for about 20 degrees of deflection, and you run into compound angles when you droop the suspension and turn the wheel at the same time, so you must limit wheel travel in order to protect the CV joint from being deflected over too wide of an angle....
And by the way, when deflected, a CV joint starts getting into parts of the cup that have thinner and thinner walls, an will eventually get too thin to be strong and break.
And we all know that wheel travel make you wheel better
And that is why all the Independent suspensions are at best a compromise offroad
DesertSpive
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You read into my comments too much. I have never boasted at the new suspension styles, I have onlycommented on the trucks ability overall. And what does the comment about my name have to do with anything? The only reason I bring that up is because people say IFS is good in on the fast desert 2 tracks, and I am pointing out that I use mine in just that way alot of the time. I am not a big fan of SLA, look at some of my smart ass comments about it. All I am saying is that just because it has SLA or TTB, doesn't mean you do not have a capable off-road vehicle. Of course SLA is never going to be as good as a solid axle in the dirt and rocks, or even as good as most TTB set ups, but my only point is not to discount a vehicle beacuse it has SLA. I have owned a TTB Ranger, and I have a solid axle vehicle too. I have off-roaded all three. Like I said, I have never been a big fan of SLA, but after driving it on and off-road, I am plesantly suprised at how well it did (maybe my expectations were just that low). That is all I am saying.
--Sean
JoshC
Only rolled it once honey
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Hey foley, thanks alot. I was still hanging here about what the SLA actually was. That was a good write up. By the way, welcome to the forum. Hope we are treating you good!! Thanks again!
Happy trails!!
Happy trails!!
foley
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no problem man
I have been meaning to write something like that for quite some time... I guess cory and dale just inspire me.....
Oh yeah, I have been around for quite a while, I just don't post much.
I have been meaning to write something like that for quite some time... I guess cory and dale just inspire me.....
Oh yeah, I have been around for quite a while, I just don't post much.
cpousnr
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And just what pass in colorado would you be talking about?
Is the west side of Hayden ok or Medano thru 8 miles of the Sand Dunes + a 20 inch water crossing, or Saint Johns and Middle Fork of the Swan trails over to Breckenridge ok? Or Cinnamon Pass and Wheeler Gelogical Area near Creede ok? Yankee Hill up by Cental City? Music or Hermit Pass trails down by Westcliffe? My 99 Ranger SLA has been there. It is not quite work site 4 wheeling as some may suggest.
Just curious, do you not consider those passes to be off-roading? Before you answer, understand I was following some members of this club on some of those trails during the Colorado Colors 2001 pre-run.
While you will not see a stock SLA on the likes of Iron Chest or Independence Trail system, show me a stock non-SLA suspensioned Ranger or Explorer on those trails.
Not jumping you guy, just suggesting they do ok for what they are.
Desertspive, like I said over on RRORC, you can off-road with me any day if you come to Colorado.
Is the west side of Hayden ok or Medano thru 8 miles of the Sand Dunes + a 20 inch water crossing, or Saint Johns and Middle Fork of the Swan trails over to Breckenridge ok? Or Cinnamon Pass and Wheeler Gelogical Area near Creede ok? Yankee Hill up by Cental City? Music or Hermit Pass trails down by Westcliffe? My 99 Ranger SLA has been there. It is not quite work site 4 wheeling as some may suggest.
Just curious, do you not consider those passes to be off-roading? Before you answer, understand I was following some members of this club on some of those trails during the Colorado Colors 2001 pre-run.
While you will not see a stock SLA on the likes of Iron Chest or Independence Trail system, show me a stock non-SLA suspensioned Ranger or Explorer on those trails.
Not jumping you guy, just suggesting they do ok for what they are.
Desertspive, like I said over on RRORC, you can off-road with me any day if you come to Colorado.
DesertSpive
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cpousnr -
I definately want to take you up on that. Colorado is on my places to wheel list.
--Sean
I definately want to take you up on that. Colorado is on my places to wheel list.
--Sean
JoshC
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OK89---Nice, now if we can fit some bigger meats on there. Man, i love the new body stlye, it would look nice like that!! Thanks, i didn't think anyone was going to do that for me!!
Happy trails!!
Happy trails!!
cpousnr
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Desertspive. . .
Sean,
Sure, if your in Colorado for a vacation, look me up or give me a shout.
We are organizing a couple of trips over on RRORC. One will be doing the trails near Sedona, Az. Think what will be the end of June.
One will start one weekend in the Buena Visa area, Aug 16th I think, and will accomplish at least Hancock, Tincup, Tomichi, and maybe Mt Antero Passes, all in excess of 11,000 ft, one going to in excess of 14,000 ft. We plan to explore the old ghost towns and mines in the area. The next weekend the group plans to be in the Durango/Silverton area to take the grand tour, Ophir, Cinnamon, Imogene passes to name a few and explore the silver mines and ghost towns in that area.
Anyway, sure, if you show up I will wheel with you. What you enjoy is just another facet of 4 wheeling. Some do not like it, but I do. Perhaps I am a minority on RRORC but oh well.
And is that not the point, if your wheeling off a paved road, you can't be there unless your in 4wheel drive, and your enjoy it, then your wheeling.
BTW, I, as a founding RRORC member, take issue with people coming over her and hammering you. I think they drove you off of RRORC and now they are bugging you here.
Your entitled to your opinion and glad you like the FX4.
It does not show well for RRORC. . .
Sean,
Sure, if your in Colorado for a vacation, look me up or give me a shout.
We are organizing a couple of trips over on RRORC. One will be doing the trails near Sedona, Az. Think what will be the end of June.
One will start one weekend in the Buena Visa area, Aug 16th I think, and will accomplish at least Hancock, Tincup, Tomichi, and maybe Mt Antero Passes, all in excess of 11,000 ft, one going to in excess of 14,000 ft. We plan to explore the old ghost towns and mines in the area. The next weekend the group plans to be in the Durango/Silverton area to take the grand tour, Ophir, Cinnamon, Imogene passes to name a few and explore the silver mines and ghost towns in that area.
Anyway, sure, if you show up I will wheel with you. What you enjoy is just another facet of 4 wheeling. Some do not like it, but I do. Perhaps I am a minority on RRORC but oh well.
And is that not the point, if your wheeling off a paved road, you can't be there unless your in 4wheel drive, and your enjoy it, then your wheeling.
BTW, I, as a founding RRORC member, take issue with people coming over her and hammering you. I think they drove you off of RRORC and now they are bugging you here.
Your entitled to your opinion and glad you like the FX4.
It does not show well for RRORC. . .
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